Why don't more people wear old non-clan tartans?

[BobsYourUncle]

I would say it is a combination of those factors, Peter. Even for those who know about them, the fact that they are not stock supported by the mills means they are going to be a bit more difficult for the average person to obtain. Even though having a tartan custom woven for you doesn't have to be as expensive as many people perceive it to be, it does require a bit of extra cost and effort. And in my experience, few people are going to go the extra mile of having a tartan custom woven simply because they like the design. For the most part, if they are going to the trouble of ordering something custom, it is going to be a tartan that has personal significance to them (i.e. a clan or family tartan, or something else for which they have a connection).

I mean, I went through the effort of recreating the tartan worn in this 1859 painting, "Sheep Washing in Glen Lyon."


(The colors turned out a bit lighter in the cloth than they appear in the painting, but I'm happy with the way it looks nonetheless).

I'm a "tartan geek" though, and I think things like this are pretty cool. :-) I recognize the fact that I'm in a minority. Plus I'm in the business. I get my cloth at wholesale pricing and I make my own kilts. Which means it can be relatively easy for me to follow a wild hair and do something like this. If I was paying regular retail pricing for a custom weave of tartan, plus paying a kilt maker to tailor the kilt for me, I certainly wouldn't own as many kilts as I do and I sincerely doubt I'd own this one!

So yes, I think it is partly just people not knowing about the existence of these tartans, but more than that I believe it is the unavailability and the cost, coupled with the fact that people will always give precedence to tartans that "mean something" to them.

Matt has an article on Pre-Culloden Tartans (without pictures, alas!):

http://albanach.org/oldtartans.html

I myself have a kilt in the so-called Ulster tartan, ca. 1600....

@Matt Newsome: So we have been discussing this modest winter project, compiling a list and illustrations, and presumably thread counts/sett counts by which each pre-Culloden tartan could be woven...I smell a grant application coming on...

[BLHS209]

1. People want to wear something with which they have a connection?
2. They don't know about these old patterns?
3. The material is not generally available?
4. The material is, or is perceived to be, more/too expensive?
5. Some other reason?

Although currently my desire is that the tartan be family related, I have been entertaining the idea of going "outside" the family. One reason I enjoy my family pattern is that people recognize it. Even though it is reportedly the oldest know pattern.

With all that being said, I would say that people do not know the old patterns and it is not generally available. I don't know the real statics but I would guess that at least 50% of the members here have kilts that are not family based (I am not including Hamish, that would tilt the numbers too much! )

If this idea develops into you needing help researching etc. I would be interested in helping.

Chris Shepherd

[figheadair]

@Matt Newsome: So we have been discussing this modest winter project, compiling a list and illustrations, and presumably thread counts/sett counts by which each pre-Culloden tartan could be woven...I smell a grant application coming on...

Wouldn't it be nice if the Scottish Executive (government), the National Museum or the like actually made some money available to preserve the nation's heritage. They've not been particularly interested to date so it would be a welcome departure. I don't count the Tartan Register which frankly is a bit of politicing rubbish that has no expertise or interest in preserving historical information but that's for a different thread.

I originally identified pre-Repeal setts as opposed to pre-Culloden ones because there are a number of traditional type patterns for which the first known example date to c1750-60 but which are true rural type patterns as opposed to the early commercial patterns of Wilsons of Bannockburn that began to appear during the late 1770s.

The principal source of such a project should be extant samples. Some portraits are painted with extraordinary accuracy, others less so and so accuracy is not always possible.

[figheadair]

Although currently my desire is that the tartan be family related, I have been entertaining the idea of going "outside" the family. One reason I enjoy my family pattern is that people recognize it. Even though it is reportedly the oldest know pattern.

With all that being said, I would say that people do not know the old patterns and it is not generally available. I don't know the real statics but I would guess that at least 50% of the members here have kilts that are not family based (I am not including Hamish, that would tilt the numbers too much! )

If this idea develops into you needing help researching etc. I would be interested in helping.

Chris Shepherd

I think you are absolutely right when you say that most people don't know about these older patterns. The fact that they are not generally available does not mean that they are potentially not easily available as short runs and as Matt has mentioned, the cost is not as much as some imagine.

There are certainly historic pieces now in Canada, and undoubtedly the US, which I don't have easy access to and any help in researching would be a great assistance. Perhaps this is more than one winter's project

[ThistleDown]

Thanks for the recommendation.

The 1819 KPB is of course a bit late for this thread as it deals with the early pattern of Messrs Wilsons of Bannockburn.

It's interesting watching this thread develop and the reasons appear to be much as I thought. There have been a number of references to exisiting publications and websites which are fine so far as they go but in every case they rely on earlier reference works many of which are faulty.

It's the dusty museums, private houses and collections that hold the key. In more than 30 years of research I've only scratched the surface of what survives but it's amaing how often the specimens have been misrecorded. The Culloden tartan is a prime example. As these pieces are in essance our historic tartan gene pool we, the nation, ought to be preserving them in a way that they are available to future generations. Unfortunately this isn't happening and it always seems to be left to charities and individuals to try and preserve what should be a national asset. But I digress.

I suppose the bottom line is if the information is not available then people cannot make a choice. A little winter project perhaps.

Should we not then seek funding for a project of this size, Peter? Some ideas? A start? Seriously. A singular cultural idea on which to build a program. If attempts have already been made, inform us: to whom, on what basis, under what auspice? If older attempts met with failure, why was that and when?

[figheadair]

Should we not then seek funding for a project of this size, Peter? Some ideas? A start? Seriously. A singular cultural idea on which to build a program. If attempts have already been made, inform us: to whom, on what basis, under what auspice? If older attempts met with failure, why was that and when?

Gosh Rex. This goes back at least 30 years to the early STS days and has been a running sore for those of us interested in tartan ever since. The bottom line is I suppose why is it that a country with such a unique cultural symbol doesn't have a national museum to preserve it and tell its story.

You know as well as I that there is a great deal of antipathy in certain circles to tartan which is seen as everything that is teuchter and coothy. Unfortunately a majority of MSPs are from the central, urban belt and have little interest in the subject.

I pleased to say that there are group of interested individuals from the historical side of things that are better connected and are pushing once again for the establishment of a national centre. That will take time but the anniversary of 1822 might be a realistic timeframe. What can others do? Ask the question why there isn't a national centre for tartan, or indeed textiles to include tweed, drugget and other uniquely scottish materials.

[ThistleDown]

Thanks, Peter, for that nutshell.

How does the Textile Heritage project fit in here? My understanding was that its funding purpose was the gathering of knowledge on all Scottish textiles, including tartan, and the development of some sort of network between the many small and large collections.

[figheadair]

Thanks, Peter, for that nutshell.

How does the Textile Heritage project fit in here? My understanding was that its funding purpose was the gathering of knowledge on all Scottish textiles, including tartan, and the development of some sort of network between the many small and large collections.

Not sure it does really although it should. It has a little bit of tartan and related connections but misses out all of the non-publically funded collections which is where an awful lot of the gems are. A start but given its significance to Scotland I really believe that tartan needs to stand on its own.

[ThistleDown]

Not sure it does really although it should. It has a little bit of tartan and related connections but misses out all of the non-publically funded collections which is where an awful lot of the gems are. A start but given its significance to Scotland I really believe that tartan needs to stand on its own.

I don't know all the partners in the project although I do know that Heriot Watt and Dundee each has a slice. I'm wondering if it might not make more sense in this economic climate to attempt to grow something that's already in place than to continue the long struggle towards an independent agency. Am I right when I say that the idea is not to combine collections, whether private or public, but to enable networking and/or a central knowledge pool?

[figheadair]

I don't know all the partners in the project although I do know that Heriot Watt and Dundee each has a slice. I'm wondering if it might not make more sense in this economic climate to attempt to grow something that's already in place than to continue the long struggle towards an independent agency. Am I right when I say that the idea is not to combine collections, whether private or public, but to enable networking and/or a central knowledge pool?

I think that you are spot on with the intention and I look forward to hearing from them and see if this is something that we can kick start through their auspices.