Black Tie Event - Shoe Advice Needed

[Vegan Scot]

Having no idea about formal footwear, I Googled "men's formal pumps" and came up with this syntax-ical gem

Good advice though, and seems to be in line with what others have said so far.

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Do not the Manolo get started on the disgraceful state of the modern American formal wear! If the Manolo sees one more pastel ruffle shirt, or the brightly-colored plaid cumberbund and matching bowtie set he will hurl. Especially do not mention the shoes! Ayyyyy! The shoes, the shoes! Such horrors.

Ideally, there is only one type of the shoe that the man should wear with the black or the white tie, it is the opera pump: the low black patent leather slipper with the discreet black gros grain bow (pinched or straight).



This shoe, it is the final, unchanged remenant of the 19th century formal wear, the only item still sometimes worn, that would have been worn by the gentleman who was to be received at the royal court 150 of the years ago.

Such the gentleman he would have appeared in the knee breeches with the silk stockings. Today, the knee breeches they are gone, the cut of the coat it has changed, the neck tie it is different, but the formal shoes, they are the same. And so these they are the original “court shoes”. (The word “pump” for the shoes, it is thus the derivative of the word “pomp”.)

In the general, the American men, when they can be wrestled into the formal wear, do not wear the opera pump, mostly because they believe it to be too sissified for the mucho macho man to wear. In such cases, the plain toe, patent leather or highly shined calf blucher or oxford, it is the most appropriate and suitable substitute.

Any other option, it is ridiculous.

[JerseyLawyer]

Do not the Manolo get started on the disgraceful state of the modern American formal wear! If the Manolo sees one more pastel ruffle shirt, or the brightly-colored plaid cumberbund and matching bowtie set he will hurl. Especially do not mention the shoes! Ayyyyy! The shoes, the shoes! Such horrors.

Somewhat off topic, but lo on twenty or more years ago now, the band that I played with had as its formal outfit (get ready for this...) - Regulation doublet, white shirt, frilled white shirt front edged in green, bow tie, cummerbund, fly plaid, kilt, tartan hose, and shoes with shoe buckle flaps. Oh, and balmoral with white cockade.

They made the decision subsequently to eliminate the tartan hose and shoe buckles, but it took a good ten years or so to completely eliminate the "dress" uniform.

And allow me to add that eliminating the tartan hose and shoe buckles to wear instead off-white hose and ghillie brogues did not do the look any favors.

[CMcG]

A better explanation of why formal shoes are a certain way has more to do with tradition and appearance than dancing; saying shoes should be smooth and elegant for dancing because people should be dancing smoothly and elegantly is a rather circular argument. Besides, not everyone dances.

If it really was all about dancing, people would be wearing something tailor made to the style of music and dance, which in some cases might be something more athletic than formal. Sorry wildrover, but several of the styles you listed are anything but smooth and elegant. And if one has that much trouble moving around or avoiding their partners feet because of dress shoes with a bit more cushion and grip, then they probably need exercise and dance lessons.

I don't buy the proposition that one can't dance properly in a chunkier shoe. I've done it and I've observed plenty of people doing the same. It does make perfect sense, however, that THCD has a well established look and that a lighter, more refined shoe is the correct choice for black tie formal attire.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A better explanation of why formal shoes are a certain way has more to do with tradition and appearance than dancing;

Your "better explanation" couldn't be farther from the truth.

Today's gentleman's formal evening shoe has evolved from the dancing pumps of the 18th and 19th centuries. When one would arrive at a ball, held either in a private residence or public assembly rooms, one would remove his heavy shoes or boots, and slip on a pair of light weight pumps, quite often carried in the tails of one's coat for convenience.

If one looks at a formal evening shoe today, even those worn with formal Highland attire, one will easily see that it is little changed from the days of Robert Burns or Sir Walter Scott. It is light weight, has a thin leather sole, and a low heel to prevent it being caught in the hem of a lady's gown. As shoes go, it is the equivalent of a gentleman's small sword as opposed to the cudgel wielded by an oaf.

[CMcG]

Your "better explanation" couldn't be farther from the truth.

Today's gentleman's formal evening shoe has evolved from the dancing pumps of the 18th and 19th centuries. When one would arrive at a ball, held either in a private residence or public assembly rooms, one would remove his heavy shoes or boots, and slip on a pair of light weight pumps, quite often carried in the tails of one's coat for convenience.

If one looks at a formal evening shoe today, even those worn with formal Highland attire, one will easily see that it is little changed from the days of Robert Burns or Sir Walter Scott. It is light weight, has a thin leather sole, and a low heel to prevent it being caught in the hem of a lady's gown. As shoes go, it is the equivalent of a gentleman's small sword as opposed to the cudgel wielded by an oaf.

OK, I'm wrong. Shoes designed for 18th century ballroom dance, and having changed little over the years, have nothing to do with tradition.

Especially when people wear them and don't dance.

[JerseyLawyer]

OK, I'm wrong. Shoes designed for 18th century ballroom dance, and having changed little over the years, have nothing to do with tradition.

I think the point is that in the case of formal footwear, form follows function. We don't just wear a particular type of dress shoe because we always have, but because for ballroom dances (and I don't just mean 'ballroom dancing' - I'm including such things as Scottish set dances, since we are talking about kilts as well here) a light, thin-soled shoe gives optimum performance.

[CMcG]

I think the point is that in the case of formal footwear, form follows function. We don't just wear a particular type of dress shoe because we always have, but because for ballroom dances (and I don't just mean 'ballroom dancing' - I'm including such things as Scottish set dances, since we are talking about kilts as well here) a light, thin-soled shoe gives optimum performance.

Ergo, for a formal event where there will not be dancing or for people who don't dance, then light, thin-soled shoes are not the only option?

[wildrover]

No troll...somebody must've stepped on a duck.

Maybe I just like to argue too much though. Sorry everyone

It's cool, I like arguing . Risking an accusation that we all need our heads checked, I will press on, in this thread of men talking about shoes ...

suede soles are preferred because they allow the foot to glide or slide across the floor.

Interesting...haven't come across these before. Are these more common in any particular style of dance? Either that, or I've seen them in action but wasn't aware of the material. The pairs I've seen in the past had a similar leather to what's used on dress shoes.

A better explanation of why formal shoes are a certain way has more to do with tradition and appearance than dancing; saying shoes should be smooth and elegant for dancing because people should be dancing smoothly and elegantly is a rather circular argument. Besides, not everyone dances.

I bolded the important bit...the shoes are smooth and elegant because the rest of the outfit is smooth and elegant. I think we're moving a little far from the original topic with all the dance talk, and if I said or implied that, I was certainly incorrect...breaking is smooth and elegant but almost everyone wears skate flats.

Docs and similarly styled shoes bridge the gap between skate shoes and dress shoes, but they're appropriate for neither, in function or appearance. Sure are great for walking around, though. I'm sporting a pair right now, same pair I wear with my kilt .

If it really was all about dancing, people would be wearing something tailor made to the style of music and dance, which in some cases might be something more athletic than formal. Sorry wildrover, but several of the styles you listed are anything but smooth and elegant. And if one has that much trouble moving around or avoiding their partners feet because of dress shoes with a bit more cushion and grip, then they probably need exercise and dance lessons.

You'll find two types of shoes for dancing...rubber or leather soled street flats or equivalent, and leather soled dance shoes. Functionally they are all the same, and the good ones allow just as much athleticism as a good trail running shoe. Appearance goes in accordance with the style of clothing worn, which is where we started, and big soles just happen to be further down the formal ladder.

On a tangent, I can only think of two styles of dance, both within hip hop, which are intentionally not smooth. All the rest, while they may incorporate a pause, pose, break, freeze, or bounce in the choreography, are smooth. Which style did you think wasn't smooth?

I don't buy the proposition that one can't dance properly in a chunkier shoe. I've done it and I've observed plenty of people doing the same.

I think we're talking about two different styles of dance. Do a few swipes in your street shoes, then do the same in your Docs, and tell me which is more comfortable. Try a pin drop next, if you haven't already thrown your clompers in the corner. That girl in the 6" platform shoes? She calls it dancing, I call it Jersey Shore (which takes nothing but makeup) until she's on brass (which requires athleticism, choreography, and practice). The swing weight is totally different, between big soles and everything else.

The leverage is completely different too, and the amount of force you can transfer to your partner increases tremendously with a sticky sole. A girl that really knows how to turn, with a stiff frame and good balance, can make use of it. Most mortals will just end up with sprained limbs and hurt feelings. I've danced with a couple people who can turn like that, but it's not common outside of a couple styles of social dance to have that much spring in a stiff frame, or to move quickly enough to take advantage of it. I suppose a good musical blend would be rockabilly, heavy on the drums and rhythm guitar, turn up the brass, and grow it with punk roots and a fifth of bourbon on the side . So yeah, you can do it...and it's fun...but it's certainly the exception. You got a place with music like that and girls that talented, call me! #$%!, maybe we should start a dancing discussion thread . Ok, I'll concede the point that it's possible to dance in a chunky shoe, but I'll not give up the detrimental leverage on the ankle & knee when a wide sole is in any position but flat on the floor, nor the point that turning is close to impossible on a sticky sole.

It does make perfect sense, however, that THCD has a well established look and that a lighter, more refined shoe is the correct choice for black tie formal attire.

Back on topic, now...THCD is at one end of the formal spectrum. Docs and similar chunky-soled shoes, and shoes with a wider lip on the sole, are at the other end.

...And you can have leather soles put on all of them .

[MacLowlife]

Thanks all and sundry for your insights and opinions- and more than I expected to learn about dance. I do love it when the Traditional Folk turn out to discuss things. I always learn something. There may be more to this thread yet, but I look forward to another informative topic. Anybody care to introduce a new thread? I can't wait.

But, since we are still on this one, I'm curious as to what dances we do in our kilts. Reels? Waltzes? I gather some may do more modern dancing. Me, I end up doing a lowlife version of swing dancing.



And the Whisky Tango Foxtrot

[Tobus]

I think we're talking about two different styles of dance. Do a few swipes in your street shoes, then do the same in your Docs, and tell me which is more comfortable. Try a pin drop next, if you haven't already thrown your clompers in the corner. That girl in the 6" platform shoes? She calls it dancing, I call it Jersey Shore (which takes nothing but makeup) until she's on brass (which requires athleticism, choreography, and practice). The swing weight is totally different, between big soles and everything else.

The leverage is completely different too, and the amount of force you can transfer to your partner increases tremendously with a sticky sole. A girl that really knows how to turn, with a stiff frame and good balance, can make use of it. Most mortals will just end up with sprained limbs and hurt feelings. I've danced with a couple people who can turn like that, but it's not common outside of a couple styles of social dance to have that much spring in a stiff frame, or to move quickly enough to take advantage of it. I suppose a good musical blend would be rockabilly, heavy on the drums and rhythm guitar, turn up the brass, and grow it with punk roots and a fifth of bourbon on the side . So yeah, you can do it...and it's fun...but it's certainly the exception. You got a place with music like that and girls that talented, call me! #$%!, maybe we should start a dancing discussion thread . Ok, I'll concede the point that it's possible to dance in a chunky shoe, but I'll not give up the detrimental leverage on the ankle & knee when a wide sole is in any position but flat on the floor, nor the point that turning is close to impossible on a sticky sole.

Not that this has anything to do with Highland attire or formal attire, but I've seen some really amazing dancers doing western swing in cowboy boots. Yes, they're leather soled for slickness, but they would probably fall in the "chunky" category (especially with the tall heels and the welt extending out past the body of the boot). But they don't seem to be an impediment to these amazing dancers.

I'm not a dancer, though, so aside from "belly-rubbing", anybody that can dance impresses me.