Etiquette lessons?

[Jock Scot]

I'm having a hard time picturing that. If I understand your description correctly, it seems like a very awkward way to do it. You're basically putting the fork on the plate with the tines pointing down, so the back of the fork is raised off the surface, then using a knife to mash the food onto the back of the fork? I'm guessing that takes practice to get it on there correctly. Thanks for the explanation.

OK, a couple more etiquette questions:

1. When eating, say, a steak, and you take a bite with gristle in it that you just can't chew or swallow. What's the correct way to deal with it? I seem to recall that the recommendation is to discreetly spit it into your napkin. But then what do you do with the napkin that contains a half-chewed piece of gristle?

2. Eating soup: usually the soup spoon is a very wide spoon. What's the proper way to use it? Are you supposed to just raise it to your mouth and then slurp the soup off of it? That seems to be the method I've seen people use, but surely that can't be considered good etiquette, with all that vulgar slurping going on. Yet the spoon is too large to fit in one's mouth (or at least I can't fit it into my mouth). Help?

3. After-dinner coffee. If it's served in a coffee cup with a saucer (similar to tea), are you supposed to hold the saucer below the cup when drinking? Or is it acceptable to just pick up the coffee cup and drink it, leaving the saucer on the table?

4. Another napkin question: when you're done eating but you're still sitting and talking, what do you do with it? Fold it up and set it on the table, or keep it in your lap until you're ready to get up and leave?

1. Cut the gristle off before putting the good meat on the fork. If you can see the gristle and you have no alternative to try and eat it, cut the meat into very small pieces---if all else fails you can swallow it! If you are faced with a really in-edible bit then yes, discreetly put it in your napkin and the discreetly place it on the side of the plate and carry on as though nothing has happened.

2. Soup spoons should be "loaded" from the far side of the bowl by dipping the FAR edge of the spoon into the soup. You sip quietly from the near side of the spoon and at no time is the spoon put into one's mouth.

3. The saucer is left on the table.

4. When you leave the table the napkin if left at your place at the table, the side plate is the usual place although on your place mat, if there is one, will not be wrong. Under no circumstance should the napkin be folded when finished with.

[EHCAlum]

I picked up the euro style of eating from my stepdad, being scottish. People look at me funny when I eat.

Peas. I abhor peas.

In college the presidents wife would have the 1st years over for dinner at the beginning of the Fall Semester. She was big on dinner etiquette. One of the things she has was knife holders at each table.

Americans really really need to learn how to use a butter knife correctly.

As far as ties go, the knot is generally determined by the formailty of the event and the type of collar. A windsor is form, a four in hands less so. You don't want a full windsor on a narrow point collar, but rather something like a half windsor. Same thing with a spread collar, you don't want a thin knot from a four in hands.

[Drac]

On butter knife my wife's big pet peeves (in public) is people who butter the whole slice of bread or roll and than chomp into it. Um, that would be me.

She puts butter on her plate and than breaks the bread into bit sizes pieces and butters each as she eats it.

Jim

[Tobus]

Thank you, Jock Scot (and MacMillan of Rathdown and others) for your replies! I'm sure I'm not the only uncultured American who has never been taught any of this, and doesn't even know who to ask about such trivial things.

Americans really really need to learn how to use a butter knife correctly.

Can you expand on this?

[EHCAlum]

Thank you, Jock Scot (and MacMillan of Rathdown and others) for your replies! I'm sure I'm not the only uncultured American who has never been taught any of this, and doesn't even know who to ask about such trivial things.


Can you expand on this?

Butter knives are smaller flatware knives. A lot of people tend to use their own knife to slice and spread butter on their bread, potatoes and what have you. The butter knife is used to slice the butter and place it on your plate, and then you use your own knife to spread the butter where you like.

Think of it like a serving spoon, but for butter.

[Jock Scot]

Butter knives are smaller flatware knives. A lot of people tend to use their own knife to slice and spread butter on their bread, potatoes and what have you. The butter knife is used to slice the butter and place it on your plate, and then you use your own knife to spread the butter where you like.

Think of it like a serving spoon, but for butter.

The reason? That way you don't get jam, marmite, honey, marmalade, bits of potato spread all over the butter patt and therefore not ruining the taste of the butter for some one else.

[Lallans]

Thank you, Jock Scot (and MacMillan of Rathdown and others) for your replies! I'm sure I'm not the only uncultured American who has never been taught any of this, and doesn't even know who to ask about such trivial things.


Can you expand on this?

As a Canadian living with a foot in both worlds, as it were, I just want to jump in and point out that it is mostly BRITISH manners that are being described here. The correct manners to use are the ones in use among the group you are with. I have been in [lowlife ] groups [ie, of peers ] that were really offended by the exquisite knife and fork method of eating- it works both ways. Remember that the correct hostess is one who sees a guest empty his finger bowl in a gulp and immediately does the same with hers.

[Lallans]

The reason? That way you don't get jam, marmite, honey, marmalade, bits of potato spread all over the butter patt and therefore not ruining the taste of the butter for some one else.

Or just crumbs in the butter, which always led to the Spanish Inquisition in my house.

[JerseyLawyer]

Remember that the correct hostess is one who sees a guest empty his finger bowl in a gulp and immediately does the same with hers.

What you've just summed up is what I learned as the difference between etiquette and good manners. Etiquette is knowing what to do when - which fork do I use now, what is the proper form of address for the Charge d'affairs from the Botswanian Legation, etc. Good manners is acting so as not to cause discomfort or embarrassment to others. Etiquette changes depending on the situation, but good manners are always the same. It's never "done" to be boorish.

Anyway, proper behavior can be a minefield sometimes. Remember that the gentleman walks on the curb (or kerb, if you like) side of the sidewalk (or pavement, again, if you like). He removes his hat... well, that's a bit trickier. Indoors is a good general rule, but he can leave it on inside large public spaces like the lobbies and corridors of an office building, though he removes it in private office suites, including waiting rooms, and in the elevator, unless the elevator is so crowded it will get crushed, unless there is a woman present... See what I mean?

Several good books have already been recommended. Emily Post's 'Etiquette' is now written by Peggy Post, and is in its umpteeth edition, but I still think it's the standard American manual on how to behave (and makes a good doorstop, since it's quite a tome). Debrett's, as Jock recommended, is good for English etiquette - 'Correct Form' is more about how you address people from all walks of life and engage in written correspondence (remember that Royal invitations are a command, so respond accordingly, etc.), so is somewhat less necessary from the point of view of "what fork do I use now".

As a final note, while there are lots of things that are thought of as "correct" most or all of the time, there are some things about which even the authoritative authors disagree (see my discussion on removing your hat). So, when in Rome, do as the Romans, and so on.

[Lallans]

I remember someone saying that he always relied on watching those around him for the correct etiquette to use, and this always worked until one day when he was in a situation where he realised everyone was watching him to see how to he was going to start eating some unfamiliar item. So I guess his method served him well up to that point, I mean, so well that it made him a role model. In my away-from-home youth, I used to wait to be served asparagus spears, which I had been told could correctly be eaten with the fingers- but no one ever did produce it in a mannered setting. So my one advanced tip on vegetables has lain dormant.