Gaelic Language attack

[Tobus]

I don't want to seem like the bad guy here because I am in total agreement that the Gaelic language needs to be protected and preserved. However, I would hope my fellow US citizens would resist the temptation and not email this individual. Personally, I would be bothered if people from other countries wanted to tell the State of Tennessee how to spend our tax dollars. So I would not presume to tell any elected official in Scotland how to spend their money. Even though I agree the remarks the gentleman made seem to be very ignorant.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. People around the world have a vested interest in seeing the Gaelic language preserved, and even though we have no legal voice in their political decisions, they at least should know that their decisions have cultural ramifications that extend beyond their own borders.

There's no harm in offering him international opinions. He has the power to ignore them if he wishes. So it's not that anyone would be 'telling them how to spend their tax dollars'. But he should know that the world is watching (especially those whose heritage extends from the area in question, and who may still have family there), and decide for himself whether to let that affect his future actions on this matter.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I'm all in favour of people learning Gaelic as an elective in school or on their own time in Gaelic speaking clubs, but resent very much any of my tax money going to support what is, and has been for more than three centuries a dying, minority language.

The cost of bi-lingualism in society is enormous. Not only in terms of money spent that could be better spent on other areas of education (to say nothing of the waste of government money in bi-lingual signs, forms, and indeed, court proceedings), but in the fact that bi-lingualism divides, rather than unites a common people. It becomes irrationally politicized and those who oppose dividing society along bilingual lines are demonized (as in the post above). Those who champion the holy grail of forcing the majority of the country to learn a language that was at best spoken by a minority of the population do so without regard for the wishes of the tax paying majority.

Comment has been made about the Navajo language-- I ask you, as undoubted as their contribution to the American war effort was, should Navajo be taught in all US, state funded schools? Probably not. Should the opportunity exist to learn the language? Of course, but not at the cost of short changing other, more important and more relevant aspects of state funded education.

If Mr. Charteris wants to take the almost half million pounds currently spent on teaching Gaelic and direct it to other areas of education -- perhaps by hiring more teachers to ease the problem of classroom over crowding -- and by so doing raise the educational achievements of the students in his local schools, I'm all for it.

Le mise--

MoR

[Bugbear]

*To Tenire's post.*
Um... I don't think Navajo is a good comparison and situation as a language to Gaelic. I have little if any knowledge of Gaelic, though, and I'm sorry if I'm butting in where I don't belong.

As far as I know, no new words are created in Navajo, so a car has legs and arms and eyes, and so on, but it is live and well being spoken with tongue firmly against teeth all over the Southwest. Ask our very own Riverkilt, so not hardly dying out. I can pick up some radio programs from up north.

It is my understanding the Dine' Windtalkers used coded language not just regular Navajo, but I might be wrong about that, and were generally proud to have served.
* Here you go, from the Navy:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm

[robbiethepiper]

In my humble opinion the teaching of english ( american, canadian, australian et. al. ) does little to improve its written or spoken standard. The main drivers are the speech of parents and peers, the ubiquity of TV and the internet and financial self interest of competence in the major world language. ( e.g. parting tourists from their cash! ). How about ceasing to teach english in scottish schools and diverting the funds to the teaching of gaelic? No cost to taxpayers and reconnection to their heritage for the nation. Somehow doubt the demise of the enlish language would follow. Comments please!

[Tobus]

The cost of bi-lingualism in society is enormous. Not only in terms of money spent that could be better spent on other areas of education (to say nothing of the waste of government money in bi-lingual signs, forms, and indeed, court proceedings), but in the fact that bi-lingualism divides, rather than unites a common people. It becomes irrationally politicized and those who oppose dividing society along bilingual lines are demonized (as in the post above). Those who champion the holy grail of forcing the majority of the country to learn a language that was at best spoken by a minority of the population do so without regard for the wishes of the tax paying majority.

I may have misunderstood the issue here: is this funding going toward teaching Gaelic to people who have no connection with the language? You stated that this is "forcing the majority of the country to learn a language that was at best spoken by a minority of the population". Is this really the case? I thought the funding was to teach Gaelic to those parts of the country where it was historically spoken.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I may have misunderstood the issue here: is this funding going toward teaching Gaelic to people who have no connection with the language? You stated that this is "forcing the majority of the country to learn a language that was at best spoken by a minority of the population". Is this really the case? I thought the funding was to teach Gaelic to those parts of the country where it was historically spoken.

I suppose the real question is why should classroom resources be used to teach Gaelic in those areas where Gaelic is commonly spoken, usually at home or down at the pub?

The plain fact of the matter is that English, not Gaelic, is the common language of Scotland-- in all likelihood fewer than 2% of the total population of the country could be said to have any measurable degree of fluency in the language. In short, probably as many-- if not more-- Scots are likely to able to converse in French than Gaelic.

While at one time Gaelic may have been widely spoken in Dumfries and Galloway, and elsewhere, such is not the case in modern times. In those areas where Gaelic is widely spoken as the primary language in the home (presumably the western Isles and parts of the Highlands), there is all the more reason to raise the standards of spoken and written English, and to expose the students to other European languages, as well as focus on math and the sciences and the myriad of other things that help to integrate children into the modern world.

Linguistic isolationism has always been a major contributing factor to the poverty of minority groups in any society, and Scotland is no exception. If the economic issues facing the Highlands and Islands are to addressed and overcome, linguistic integration in the class room will have to take place. Time spent promoting what has become a regional language, spoken by a minority of Scots, at the expense of teaching children those skills which will enhance their prospects of a better life, is counter productive, regardless whether they live in the Gaeltacht or Glasgow.

[Lallans]

I will not profess any opinions about how Scotland should spend tax dollars or educate their children but but I have to say that any human language is a priceless artifact and as such should be preserved as a living one as well as on tape or parchment. The Celtic languages have been lost in most places and are still being lost in most of the holdout areas because they are despised by the English or (in the case of Brittany, French) speaking majorities surrounding them, and further are distrusted as subversive by those in power. When no one has cared to take the steps to preserve them, they disappear quickly. It is up to Scotland to decide what will happen there, but almost anyone would support their preserving their heritage if it was embodied in any other form. Dul gaeilge!

[Tobus]

I suppose the real question is why should classroom resources be used to teach Gaelic in those areas where Gaelic is commonly spoken, usually at home or down at the pub?

I dunno, why teach any language to those who already speak it? I mean, honestly, why do we teach English to English-speaking kids? Maybe, to help preserve the language and ensure that it's spoken/written properly?

If Gaelic is the native language of a people and that's what they speak in the home and the community, I see no reason why it should be ignored. Sure, if English is the common language of the nation, it behooves the educators to ensure that everyone learns it. But it doesn't necessarily have to mean that Gaelic is completely ignored by educators, does it?

Linguistic isolationism has always been a major contributing factor to the poverty of minority groups in any society, and Scotland is no exception. If the economic issues facing the Highlands and Islands are to addressed and overcome, linguistic integration in the class room will have to take place.

My reading on Scottish history seems to suggest that this approach has been tried for several hundred years now, with very little success. Maybe it's not the language that's making them poor.

Forcing an indigenous culture to adopt foreign ways (which includes trying to wipe out their language in favor of the tongue of the more powerful controlling culture) has been done many times, in many different places, and is almost invariably looked upon later with regret.

Surely there can be room in the budget to acknowledge that Gaelic is an important part of the history and culture of the region, and should be preserved for posterity by continuing the tradition with the children? Integration into the modern world is a noble goal, to be sure, but if it comes at the expense of history, tradition, culture, and identity (especially when such change is being pushed on them), then one has to question the true worth of it.

All the above, of course, is said with the utmost respect and acquiescence to the internal decisions of the region. I just find this to be an interesting subject of discussion, considering what my own country has done to its indigenous peoples (which is now looked upon with great regret by many). It's like watching history being made, and something terrible happening to a people whose rich culture is being forced into obscurity due to... what? Budget concerns?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I dunno, why teach any language to those who already speak it? I mean, honestly, why do we teach English to English-speaking kids? Maybe, to help preserve the language and ensure that it's spoken/written properly?

Actually, it is taught so that they can communicate effectively with others. Those English speaking people with the lowest level of linguistic skills are the same people who end up in the bottom of the employment barrel. If one can not effectively communicate, one's prospects for any sort of advancement are severely curtailed.

If Gaelic is the native language of a people and that's what they speak in the home and the community, I see no reason why it should be ignored. Sure, if English is the common language of the nation, it behooves the educators to ensure that everyone learns it.

It's not a matter of "IF English is the common language", but rather that English IS the common language of Scotland.

But it doesn't necessarily have to mean that Gaelic is completely ignored by educators, does it?

It is not a matter of ignoring Gaelic, but rather over-emphasizing it at the expense of precious classroom time and resources to which most people object.


My reading on Scottish history seems to suggest that this approach has been tried for several hundred years now, with very little success. Maybe it's not the language that's making them poor.

Language is one of several major factors that has prevented "the Highlands" from benefiting from being an integral part of present day Scotland. Climate and topography play a part, as does a general distrust of "outsiders". This is true of all rural communities, but it is highlighted by the locals general lack of ability (real or perceived) to effectively communicate with the outsiders, that leads to their disenfranchisement in broader society.

Forcing an indigenous culture to adopt foreign ways (which includes trying to wipe out their language in favor of the tongue of the more powerful controlling culture) has been done many times, in many different places, and is almost invariably looked upon later with regret.

The major fact that is being overlooked is that the 95%+ of non-Gaelic speaking Scots are also indigenous to the land, and it is a mistake to imply that their ways are somehow "foreign", or representative of a controlling culture. The situation, as it applies linguistically in Scotland, does not bear comparison with tribal cultures living on reservations in North America.

Surely there can be room in the budget to acknowledge that Gaelic is an important part of the history and culture of the region, and should be preserved for posterity by continuing the tradition with the children? Integration into the modern world is a noble goal, to be sure, but if it comes at the expense of history, tradition, culture, and identity (especially when such change is being pushed on them), then one has to question the true worth of it.

I personally have no quarrel with the history and culture of Scotland being taught in school on a nationwide basis; in fact, I rather wish a greater emphasis was placed on Scottish culture and history-- and the impact Scots have had on the world. This, in my opinion, would go much farther in building and strengthening a sense of Scottish identity. Teaching Gaelic, especially in small rural communities where the speaking of English may very well be looked down upon, does nothing to help integrate those students into modern Scotland-- especially as it reinforces a sense of isolation and, ultimately, a sense of estrangement from the rest of Scottish society.

All the above, of course, is said with the utmost respect and acquiescence to the internal decisions of the region. I just find this to be an interesting subject of discussion, considering what my own country has done to its indigenous peoples (which is now looked upon with great regret by many).

Again, I have to point out that there is no comparison between Scotland and North America in this regard. The Gaelic speaking minority are not a separate race of people, they are a fusion of many different peoples, just as are the rest of the Scots. The language they speak has been in sharp decline for 250 years because generation upon generation of Scots have left to seek a better life elsewhere. And the key to unlocking the door to that better life has been the ability to effectively communicate in English.

It's like watching history being made, and something terrible happening to a people whose rich culture is being forced into obscurity due to... what? Budget concerns?

Scottish culture is a far hardier plant than you might imagine. It has flourished for centuries, and the Gaelic language has been a part of it, but not its foundation nor its coroner stone. One might as well lament the passing of the Picts, or sigh in longing for what might have been had the Norwegians not lost the battle of Largs in 1296, when decrying the possibility of Scottish culture passing into obscurity.

The truth is that the language of the Gaels is already preserved and it isn't going anywhere, certainly not into cultural oblivion. Spending time and precious educational resources improving the spoken and written Gaelic language skills of a minority of children who live in a nation where the vast, overwhelming, majority speak English is, in my opinion, disenfranchising them in their own land.

[Graham A. Robieson]

Greetings,

The Question of the "Native Language" the true language of which is often referred to as something simular to Welsh, the language of the Gaels is in part between Scotland and Ireland, cause in the days of William Wallace, Ireland/Ulster was referred to as "Scotia Major" and Scotland as "Scotia Minor" the history of our language is to refer to the language spoken by the "Picts" as they were named by the "Romans"...the fusion between Irish Gaelic and Pictish has made Scots Gaelic what it is today, Scotland has always had more than one Language, e.g. Lowlanders spoke what is referred to as "Scots" the Highlanders spoke "Gaelic" and Orkney/Shetland isles spoke a language closer to "Norse" for centuries Scotland has been awash with different languages and now "English" is generally spoken by Scots, however "Scots Language" is not taught in schools and even though it is not taught, it is still spoken across the lowlands, Highlanders speak both Gaelic and English, to say that Gaelic is a dead language is not correct...the act of union in 1707 meant that "Scots Language" was not to be used in the educational system and that "English" was to take presendence in Scottish Schools, even when my dad was at school, if he spoke "Scots" he was punished, and when I used bits from my dads broken terms, I was corrected with the proper "English" in my vocabulary. "Gaelic" will not disappear and as is with "Scots" even when they tried to remove it from the peoples eye, Robert Burns is one who wrote his poems in "Scots" and with that has kept "Scots" going, even when it is still not taught in schools today.

Scotland is many things and one thing for me is that, Scots will never be short of languages and we will have more in order to communicate to people all over the world, ay' scots is here to stay, and even if not taught in schools, it is still spoken at home, Gaelic was spoken by my family centuries ago, but not now, Scots was spoken by my family until recently, of which there are a few bits and pieces still spoken at home, I got books on "Scots" and "Gaelic" and of which I read not all the way through but it was interesting to learn, some of the ancient language spoken by my ancestors.

Thank-you for your time,


All the best,


Graham


'S mise Graham...Ciamar a tha sibh?...Tha mi airson Gàidhlig ionnsachadh...A bheil Gàidhlig agaibh?