To button or not...?

[Mike_Oettle]

Irish Jack’s quotation of one of The Chap’s rules makes no impression on me whatever.
Look at their rule No 2: “THOU SHALT NEVER NOT SMOKE.”
That one I won’t follow, so why should I follow rule No 6: “THOU SHALT NEVER FASTEN THE LOWEST BUTTON ON THY WESKIT.”
And who make Edward VII the ultimate arbiter anyway?
And then there is rule No 10: “THOU SHALT ALWAYS CULTIVATE INTERESTING FACIAL HAIR. By interesting we mean moustaches, not beards.”
No, thanks, I’ll hang on to my beard.
Regards,
Mike

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Irish Jack’s quotation of one of The Chap’s rules makes no impression on me whatever.
Look at their rule No 2: “THOU SHALT NEVER NOT SMOKE.”
That one I won’t follow, so why should I follow rule No 6: “THOU SHALT NEVER FASTEN THE LOWEST BUTTON ON THY WESKIT.”
And who make Edward VII the ultimate arbiter anyway?
And then there is rule No 10: “THOU SHALT ALWAYS CULTIVATE INTERESTING FACIAL HAIR. By interesting we mean moustaches, not beards.”
No, thanks, I’ll hang on to my beard.
Regards,
Mike

Rule #2: As Brother Kipling said, "A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke..." as is a pipe. Cigarettes, at least since the demise of Balkan Sobraine Blacks, can no longer be regarded as proper smokes, and therefore should be avoided.

Rule #6: Sadly, for those of us of lesser rank, the king is always the final abriter in matters of sartorial taste, and reprieves from sentences of death. And since, at least in those circles that matter, buttoning the bottom button of one's waistcoat is considered a form of social death, one may consider himself reprieved if following the example of the king.

Rule #10: But your facial hair, like that of Kings Edward VII, George V, and Czar and Martyr Nicholas II of Russia, is interesting. Unlike that billy-goat goatee sported by Bubba down at the tire store. No, a full-bearded gentleman, such as yourself or Rex, is every bit the proper gentleman.

Now that that's settled I'm putting on my trouser clips, hopping on my Raleigh bicycle, and nipping into the village to have a pint and a pie at my local.

Cheers!

Scott

[thescot]

MoR has put things quite well and in proper perspective, I think. However, I would note that King Edward VII is no longer on the throne. Having said that, a gentleman just does not button the lowest button of his vest or his jacket; it just isn't done unless you want to be thought a rube who doesn't know better.

Personally, I never button my jacket with or without a waitcaot, and I do not button the lowest button of my waistcoat. And, I wear a comberbund with the "flaps" opening up, I never wear a boutenniere and a lapel pin at the same time, nor do I wear canvas shoes with a sport coat or suit. These things are not codified, but it's mostly the way things are done by a gentleman, I think.

One and all can wear anything they like in any way they like at any time they like, but don't be offended if you draw a snicker or two when you "viloate" the accepted mode of dress.

[Nighthawk]

But again, WHY EVEN HAVE THE BUTTON IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO USE IT???

'cause it's purty...

The Duke of Rothesay buttons the bottom button on his waistcoats when donning Highland attire. I'm just sayin'.

Yeah? And my grandpa would scowl at him, too.

Rule #2: As Brother Kipling said, "A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke..." as is a pipe. Cigarettes, at least since the demise of Balkan Sobraine Blacks, can no longer be regarded as proper smokes, and therefore should be avoided.

Rule #6: Sadly, for those of us of lesser rank, the king is always the final abriter in matters of sartorial taste, and reprieves from sentences of death. And since, at least in those circles that matter, buttoning the bottom button of one's waistcoat is considered a form of social death, one may consider himself reprieved if following the example of the king.

Rule #10: But your facial hair, like that of Kings Edward VII, George V, and Czar and Martyr Nicholas II of Russia, is interesting. Unlike that billy-goat goatee sported by Bubba down at the tire store. No, a full-bearded gentleman, such as yourself or Rex, is every bit the proper gentleman.

Now that that's settled I'm putting on my trouser clips, hopping on my Raleigh bicycle, and nipping into the village to have a pint and a pie at my local.

Cheers!

Scott

MoR, you and I may not see eye to eye on a lot of issues... but I have to say that I do like you! You phrased that quite well! Kings rules.

[auld argonian]

Having said that, a gentleman just does not button the lowest button of his vest or his jacket; it just isn't done unless you want to be thought a rube who doesn't know better.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been questioning a whole lot of these really insignificant things that have become conventions lately and have sort of come to the conclusion that they are,in fact, so insignificant that anyone who would seriously find fault in you for not observing them has got to have better things to do.

The vest button thing takes me back to high school. Consider that I was part of a large group of working class kids who got tossed in to an environment where we were expected to get the kind of education, both academically and socially, that would help us rise above our "humble" roots and move the family up the social and financial ladder a couple of rungs. Part of this was supposed to be learning how to dress and present one's self so that they would not be thought of as a "rube" (or just some working class schmuck from the South Side of Chicago). Bottom line on this: I met an awful lot of really nasty people in high school (and, subsequently, in the rest of my life) who made a great point of being sure that their bottom vest button was undone while they were busy screwing people over. I have also met a lot of people who BUTTONED the bottom button and who were the salt of the earth.

Thus, I don't go around checking bottom buttons...lately, I have been buttoning mine just because I can. If anyone points it out and says that it should be unbuttoned, I always say, "Really? Why?". The answer is invariably just what has been kicked around here: because that's just the way it's done. At that point, I usually just shrug and change the subject.

I certainly always try to dress presentably and appropriately but I have personally had it with some of these tics that get codified into "proper" dress. I love being able to do the kilted thing but one of the aspects of it that I lose patience with is strict codification of the thing. I believe that even Martha Stewart once said, "Sometimes good enough is good enough.".


I guess that the thread began with Kilted Mariner just casually wondering why that damn button is left undone...sorry if I've unloaded a bit of my personal baggage here but I'd like to think that the measure of a gentleman is not how scrupulously he observes unimportant fine points of wardrobing that were established in bygone days but rather how he treats other people and the world in general.

Best

AA

[Dale Seago]

I'm inclined to put a lot of credence in the observations of someone living in Scotland, concerning how he sees things done in Scotland:

As far as I am aware there is no absolute right or wrong over this. What I will say is that , over here with kilt attire, it is more usual the have the bottom button of the waistcoat done up and the jacket(with or without waistcoat) is almost universally left undone, which does look better I think and unless hypothermia is about to strike in which case, all ideas of right and wrong don't matter much and common sense takes priority.

In passing, the bottom button on the waistcoats of my shooting suits and "Saxon" suits are always undone.

The rest of us outwith Scotland are, of course, free to do things whateverwhichway we want. :-)

[lukeyrobertson]

Didn't anybody like my limerick on buttons? Did anybody smile? Seems the forum can use a little frivolity from time to time. After counting Father Bill's "one's" I realized that "once" is not enough so used it twice! BTW, I keep the bottom button on the waistcoat unbuttoned. Feels like there's more room to move and doesn't get in the way of the sporran...

[Jock Scot]

A very interesting discussion. As I said in an earlier post here, that for KILT ATTIRE there are no hard and fast rules over the waistcoat bottom button. However I do think we do need remember that we are talking kilt attire and NOT Saxon wear in all its forms.

For Highland attire I really do think we are ignoring a local Highland Scots trend where the bottom button of a waistcoat is usually DONE UP with the kilt and is usually left undone on saxon wear waistcoats. Why and how long this difference has gone on I cannot say, but to my knowledge some six decades and when you include my father and his generation and my Grand father and his generation that generally followed the same train of thought then one really ought to start to think that for some reason there is a difference in style, albeit a very minor one, between the two styles of attire.

One thing is for certain sure no one is going to die because of what we do with a damned button and the Earth will continue to spin long, long after we all have turned to dust!

[Mike_Oettle]

Thank you, Jock, for pointing out that subtle difference between kilt attire and Saxon wear.
Regards,
Mike

[Dale Seago]

Going back to the MacLeay highlander pics I've seen, I don't recall any of them (where a determination CAN be made) where the bottom waistcoat button is left undone. So the practice with Highland wear in Scotland appears to go back at least to the 1800s.