Getting a COA registered

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The other issue is cadet matriculation. I am the second son of my father, my father is the second son, and I am sure there are more in there between him and me. The additional hang up I have is essentially both of those knuckle heads (father and brother) would be eligible for the CoA. Which goes to the back and forth thought between registration in the states or have it matriculated.

In your situation the Lyon will devise arms representing the colonial ancestor, and then matriculate them down to the petitioner. So, assuming for a minute that you have the same last name as your colonial ancestor, and can provide the necessary proofs of marriage and birth, here's what happens:

For the sake of discussion let's say the arms devised by Lyon to represent your ancestor are: argent a chevron gules within a bordure sable. Based on these arms he may determine that those that might be devised for your grandfather (as an indeterminate cadet of the original ancestor) would be: argent a chevron gules within a bordure nebuly sable. From this he might deduce that the appropriate cadency for the second son (your father) would be: argent a chevron gules within a bordure nebuly per pale sable and or. Having reached this point Lyon might be prepared to grant those arms to you.

As far as your father and uncle are concerned, unless they petition for arms, they have no entitlement to a portion of the matriculation of the original ancestor, nor do their other children. Were it I, I would have my grandfather (if living) petition arms and then seek matriculation based on his grant. Failing that I would have the petition go forward in my father's name.

Substantive arms -- those backed by the authority of a sovereign state -- are always preferable to self-assumed arms, no matter what private body has recorded them.

[WVHighlander]

Substantive arms are the preferred. The other issue I have with matriculation is a private family matter, but lets just say that if I did it through my father or grandfather they wouldn't be eligble.

What I have decided to do is write Lord Lyon and lay out my case for him. If anyone has any advice on writing to the office of Lord Lyon or Lord Lyon himself I would appreciate it greatly.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Substantive arms are the preferred. The other issue I have with matriculation is a private family matter, but lets just say that if I did it through my father or grandfather they wouldn't be eligble.

What I have decided to do is write Lord Lyon and lay out my case for him. If anyone has any advice on writing to the office of Lord Lyon or Lord Lyon himself I would appreciate it greatly.

Send me a PM if you would like assistance in this matter.

[SlackerDrummer]

Substantive arms -- those backed by the authority of a sovereign state -- are always preferable to self-assumed arms, no matter what private body has recorded them.

According to whom?

[Cygnus]

According to whom?

You can find a great number of books and articles on the subject; I've found the Heraldry Society of Scotland to be a great source of information.

As for why substantive arms are preferred, that depends quite a lot on who you are, your intentions for the arms, and where you live.

If you live in Scotland, substantive arms are better because the use of self-assumed arms is illegal and can lead to a fine and the confiscation of any property bearing said arms.

Also, arms registered with a government body are generally the legal property of the bearer and, in Scotland and South Africa at least, the fees of matriculation also cover the legal defense of the use of the arms.

Added to that is the question of tradition and the correct adherence to the laws of arms (which vary from country to country). Arms granted by and registered with an organization whose history goes back over 1,500 years mean a lot more to me than arms granted by a group of pseudo-armigers that have formed an ad-hoc organization only in the past century.

I have nothing against heraldic organizations in the USA, Spain, and elsewhere that strive to keep the use of heraldry alive when their governments have no official heraldic authority for civilian arms. But if given the choice, I would take the substantive arms over a document from such an organization for the reasons listed above.


So, if you want a coat of arms just for a bit of fun, don't care if others use them, and aren't worried about the correctness of the arms or the ancient heraldic traditions of your ancestors, go ahead and make up your own arms and emblazon them wherever you'd like (so long as it's not in Scotland). If this is the case, I honestly wouldn't bother registering them with anyone unless you're interested in getting in touch with others that have assumed arms.

For those that are interested in substantive arms but that don't have a documented genealogical connection to Scotland or another country that would grant arms to the foreign descendants of its citizens, the Bureau of Heraldry of South Africa will generally be able to accommodate you.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

According to whom?

Well, in a perfect world, one supposes that "whom" should mean oneself. The assumption of arms to which one has no substantive entitlement isn't that much different than assuming military, scholarly, or religious rank, to which one has no entitlement. It may sound, or look, impressive, but it just isn't real.

Given that virtually anyone, with a bit of effort, can obtain substantive arms, to merely "assume" arms might suggest to some the actions of a social wannabe.

On a broader scale, suppose someone with assumed arms moved to Scotland, and wished to display his arms on the side of the family car. If the arms were substantive, regardless of where granted, Lyon would recognize them and in all probability record them for use in Scotland. Such would not be the case with assumed arms. In this instance one might find oneself being ordered to remove the arms or face prosecution.

Hope that answers the question.

Scott

[SlackerDrummer]

If you live in Scotland, substantive arms are better because the use of self-assumed arms is illegal and can lead to a fine and the confiscation of any property bearing said arms.

Yes, but Scotland is the only country in the world for which that is the case.

Also, arms registered with a government body are generally the legal property of the bearer and, in Scotland and South Africa at least, the fees of matriculation also cover the legal defense of the use of the arms.

Legal protection is vague at best in any country other than the two you cite.

Added to that is the question of tradition and the correct adherence to the laws of arms (which vary from country to country). Arms granted by and registered with an organization whose history goes back over 1,500 years mean a lot more to me than arms granted by a group of pseudo-armigers that have formed an ad-hoc organization only in the past century.

Arms were not granted ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD until the 15th century (hardly 1500 years ago) and the original purpose of "granting" arms (in England at least) had everything to do with collecting taxes and exerting control over the feudal system. No more. No less. It was never about recognizing one's merits or social standing.

I have nothing against heraldic organizations in the USA, Spain, and elsewhere that strive to keep the use of heraldry alive when their governments have no official heraldic authority for civilian arms. But if given the choice, I would take the substantive arms over a document from such an organization for the reasons listed above.

In some countries, in fact most on the continent of Europe, there was NEVER an official heraldic authority.

So, if you want a coat of arms just for a bit of fun, don't care if others use them, and aren't worried about the correctness of the arms or the ancient heraldic traditions of your ancestors, go ahead and make up your own arms and emblazon them wherever you'd like (so long as it's not in Scotland). If this is the case, I honestly wouldn't bother registering them with anyone unless you're interested in getting in touch with others that have assumed arms.

Unless you live in Scotland or South Africa, you have no recourse if someone else uses your arms regardless of whether or not they are granted or assumed. I don't buy into the "traditions of your ancestors" bit. The reason to have a grant from Lyon for a Scot is because they have to, plain and simple. That isn't a tradition, it's the law. Like any number of other things, that burden was lifted when emigration occurred.

For those that are interested in substantive arms but that don't have a documented genealogical connection to Scotland or another country that would grant arms to the foreign descendants of its citizens, the Bureau of Heraldry of South Africa will generally be able to accommodate you.

But why on Earth would you want a registration from a country with which you have no connection whatsoever? If it is simply so that you can have the seal of approval from a government entity, then I would suggest your self-worth deserves some introspection.

Well, in a perfect world, one supposes that "whom" means oneself. The assumption of arms to which one has no substantive entitlement isn't that much different than assuming military, scholarly, or religious rank, to which one has no entitlement. It may sound, or look, impressive, but it just isn't real.

That is simply not true and a very Anglo-centric perspective. The assumption of arms is and always has been the norm on the continent of Europe. Nothing about a grant of arms makes them more real in any substantive way to anyone except those who live in countries where there is an acting granting authority. While a grant to someone living outwith Scotland may be more meaningful to it's recipient, granted arms are in no way, legally, socially, or otherwise better than assumed arms.

Given that virtually anyone, with a bit of effort, can obtain substantive arms, to merely "assume" arms might suggest to some the actions of a social wannabe.

Yes, anyone with a bit of effort and the requisite cash on hand. Given that all it takes is the ability to pay for a grant of arms to "achieve" one, it makes one wonder who is the real social wannabe, doesn't it? There is no background check for obtaining a coat of arms from any of the authorities and they are reactive rather than proactive grants. Therefore, they do not convey any type of social status.

On a broader scale, suppose someone with assumed arms moved to Scotland, and wished to display his arms on the side of the family car. If the arms were substantive, regardless of where granted, Lyon would recognize them and in all probability record them for use in Scotland. Such would not be the case with assumed arms. In this instance one might find oneself being ordered to remove the arms or face prosecution.

I am quite aware of the laws in Scotland regarding heraldry. If one moves to Scotland, that puts them under the jurisdiction of Lyon and that is a game-changer. The law of the land is the law of the land. But I doubt what you're saying applies to everyone with assumed arms. I'd be willing to bet Lyon would recognize the arms assumed by (then Mr.) Daniel Westling.

[auld argonian]

So basically what we're talkin' about is a wee bit of artwork on a shield background that lets the person who sees it know who you are? Maybe there was a use for that back in the age of massive illiteracy but now it's just kind of another decorative bit...why not just say that you've designed a LOGO for yourself and have it registered as a trademark®...

I'm sorry but any contemporary use of a Coat of Arms seems like a a bit of a pretension. Do people in the UK actually ride around in their autos with their coats of arms emblazoned on the doors? I'd think that a certain degree of anonymity would be a good security measure for anyone who might be considered wealthy or important....why advertise that you're "somebody"? I think that age has passed.

I suppose that it's a fun thing to do...to a certain extent...my farthest back Scottish ancestor had a really nifty lookin' coat of arms and I do admit that I've been tempted to do a somewhat cleaned up version as a t-shirt only because it's great color and great geometry and would probably be mistaken for a comic book hero's emblem (like the Superman "S") but it would only be as a fun thing...I know full well that it belonged to him and not me.

I have followed this with some interest since it has, for the most part, been a very good academic discussion.

Best

AA

[macwilkin]

So basically what we're talkin' about is a wee bit of artwork on a shield background that lets the person who sees it know who you are? Maybe there was a use for that back in the age of massive illiteracy but now it's just kind of another decorative bit...why not just say that you've designed a LOGO for yourself and have it registered as a trademark®...

I'm sorry but any contemporary use of a Coat of Arms seems like a a bit of a pretension. Do people in the UK actually ride around in their autos with their coats of arms emblazoned on the doors? I'd think that a certain degree of anonymity would be a good security measure for anyone who might be considered wealthy or important....why advertise that you're "somebody"? I think that age has passed.

I suppose that it's a fun thing to do...to a certain extent...my farthest back Scottish ancestor had a really nifty lookin' coat of arms and I do admit that I've been tempted to do a somewhat cleaned up version as a t-shirt only because it's great color and great geometry and would probably be mistaken for a comic book hero's emblem (like the Superman "S") but it would only be as a fun thing...I know full well that it belonged to him and not me.

I have followed this with some interest since it has, for the most part, been a very good academic discussion.

Best

AA

Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father. -- G.K. Chesterton

Or, as C.S. Lewis warned us, Beware of chronological snobbery...

T.

[creagdhubh]

Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father. -- G.K. Chesterton

Or, as C.S. Lewis warned us, Beware of chronological snobbery...

T.

I love it Todd!!! Cheers my friend and well said old chap!!!