Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the Kilt isn't 'just clothes'.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,
I appreciate the honest answer you provided. I am not Scottish I am an American. I do not pretend to be Scottish, but as it has been said in other posts on this thread as an American and to be American it is to be an immigrant from somewhere else. This is part of our national identity.

I did not intend to make this an attack on you or other, intended, personal or otherwise. I was simply asking for your opinion and you graciously gave that, thank you.

Come on Paul,you have nothing to reproach yourself for, it was a honest question with an honest reply, nothing more.

Out of interest, what makes you Americans so special?I doubt that there is a person in any nation that you care to think of that does not have a good dollop of mixed blood in them, including this Scot!

[Joshua]

I have done my best to trace my ancestry as far back through the old country as I can. I've traced Ancestry to Wales, Germany, Lower England, and the Cherokee natives (pretty much in order of concentration).

With the exception of an Adopted father who married a 3rd-generation Scottish lass, I can claim no Scottish Ancestry (as far as I know, I still have two lines of family I can't reach past the 1800's).

I can, however, take pride in my athletic endeavors, I've been a proud highland athlete and strongman for some time, and had (until recently) only donned the kilt in the field for throwing. Wearing the kilt elsewhere identifies me with my athlete brothers, is comfortable, and in my honest opinion, is just damn powerful, masculine, and bold - all things I'd hope end up on my obituary.

By extension, the food, whiskey, ancient culture, and people I've grown to love. I culturally associate with Scotland, even though the blood connection just isn't there.

So Jock, when I come up to lift the Manhood Stones, I'll hopefully get a chance to share a dram with you... kilted.

Even though I'm not Scottish (after all, nobody's perfect).

[Jock Scot]

Strewth! I would need a gallon of whisky before I even looked at one of those stones! I have to say that I have not ever heard of them---I live and learn. Yes indeed if ever you are over this way(Spean Bridge is er well, nearest) then a wee dram is a welcome thought. By the way, I seem to have missed out on the perfection front too!

[CMcG]

Well, this thread is certainly heating up! There is plenty of opportunity to break forum rules in this sort of discussion, so let's keep this civil and non-politcal, shall we?

There are essentially three arguments going on here about the "right" to wear the kilt.

The first is nationalist, which means anyone not of Scottish descent, carrying a British passport, and currently calling Scotland home is, at best, borrowing an important symbol. At worst this means non-Scots are stealing culture.

The second is an ethnic argument, which recognizes that there are many people of Scottish heritage outwith Scotland who wish to maintain or revive aspects of their culture. Considering that there are far more people of Scottish descent (estimated at between 28 and 40 million) outside Scotland than within (approx. 5 million), this is a potent position from a democratic majority perspective.

The third is a deconstruction of the kilt from symbol to clothing. From this point of view, the kilt originated in Scotland but does not always already function as a national symbol. The kilt is just clothes to some people and, while they may respect the value it holds to other people, they choose to wear it as they see fit.

Given that there is no worldwide kilt regulating body with enforcing power, there is no legal ability to grant or deny the "right" to wear the kilt. People have opinions about their claims to the kilt and are bound to be offended when others deny the validity of those claims. On Xmarks, we have members from pretty much every position.

I advocate recognizing all these points of view and trying to achieve some sort of harmony. Anyone who takes the attitude of the aggressor in the OP would probably have a heart attack on Xmarks IMHO, the kilt is the national attire of Scotland, is worn by people outside Scotland as a symbol of heritage (be that Scottish, Celtic, military, athletic, musical, dance, or other), and is also just clothes. In order to happily coexist on a forum like this requires respect for the kilt because it is polysemic (multiple significations) and sensitivity towards the fact that it means something different to other people.

As an aside about official status, the Canadian government incorporates symbols of Scotland (as well as British, French, English, Irish, and local) in our national arms. They advocate that all Canadians wear the Maple Leaf tartan for Canada Day on July 1st. Tartan Day on April 6th is also promoted as a day for Canadians to wear the Maple Leaf, their provincial, territorial, or personal tartans. And it says specifically Canadians can wear a kilt (at least in the Maple Leaf tartan) although it also says they don't regulate it:

"When is it appropriate to wear the Maple Leaf Tartan?
The Maple Leaf Tartan can be worn at special occasions, or as everyday attire in the form of a kilt, scarf, hat or necktie. "

I'm curious to know, does Scotland (or any other country) have specific recognition of tartan and, more importantly, kilts?



Read about Canada and tartan here:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/o6-eng.cfm

Click on the arms to read more about it:

[Dixiecat]

TO FOSTER AND CONTINUE SCOTTISH CULTURE AND HERITAGE

This was said a few pages ago. I can understand what Jock has said and I value his true opinion.

I would like to mention that the Halifax Highland Games has had to be cancelled for the last couple of years. There are a couple of factors contributing to this but the biggest has been lack of funding. The organizing committee has been denied access to government grants. Why? Because celebrating Scottish culture and heritage is so commonplace here in Nova Scotia that they don't qualify as a cultural event!!

[Tobus]

Out of interest, what makes you Americans so special?I doubt that there is a person in any nation that you care to think of that does not have a good dollop of mixed blood in them, including this Scot!

I think you're still missing the point!

It's not about blood or DNA or genes. It's about culture.

I know that Scotland has this issue, as I see it being complained about all the time. You have a large contingent of immigrants there from Pakistan, India, and other far-away places. Those people still try to retain their heritage and culture. I've seen more than one picture of these folks wearing long beards and turbans even though they are now Scottish citizens. And many of them raise their children to respect and celebrate their original culture.

So your question seems a bit odd. There's nothing "special" about Americans in this regard. Immigrants all over the world do this same thing - even in Scotland. Do people berate them for pretending to be Pakistani or Indian?

But to address your point more finely: Scotland may have several old bloodlines (like Vikings or the fabled shipwrecked Spaniards). But what you don't have is pockets of people who still identify themselves as such. They were integrated long ago and helped make Scotland what it is today. America is still too young for the so-called "melting pot" effect to have been complete. We are still a land made up of recent immigrants, and there is no homogenous culture.

Not to mention, America is WAY too large to expect homogeneity. Give us a thousand years or more, and then talk to us about having our own unique culture. As it is right now, we're a relatively new group of people who are still trying to figure out who we are. If there were anything "special" about America, that would be it. That's the thing that makes us different from any other culture you care to compare us to.

[Father Bill]

.....

[CMcG]

<snip>

Not to mention, America is WAY too large to expect homogeneity. Give us a thousand years or more, and then talk to us about having our own unique culture. As it is right now, we're a relatively new group of people who are still trying to figure out who we are. If there were anything "special" about America, that would be it. That's the thing that makes us different from any other culture you care to compare us to.

Also Canada, Australia, and much of the rest of the New World...

[Nick the DSM]

Come on Paul,you have nothing to reproach yourself for, it was a honest question with an honest reply, nothing more.

Out of interest, what makes you Americans so special?I doubt that there is a person in any nation that you care to think of that does not have a good dollop of mixed blood in them, including this Scot!

Going back to the mixing pot analogy of U.S. America, its the people that make the states. All the immigrants, descendents, native people, etc Thats why we have a Chinese new year celebration over here, October fest, and others.

I don't think we Americans (of the U.S.) think ourselves as special, but atleast some are proud and care for what blood trickles through them, even if its German, Russian, Hispanic, etc. Same goes for Canada.

Even the Americans below the states are a mixing pot. Lot of Spanish influences of course, but in South America you will see so many other cultures of both native and European. Argentina has a lot of Italian, Spanish and English influences, there's even a Welsh community(gasp!) along Patagonia and they have there own festivals. I know that there are other European influences too, among them is Scottish.

Maybe we Americans don't know what we should be now in the sense of a united culture, but atleast we know what we were and that it still runs through us.

Hopefully I've made sense and its not some 18 year old gibberish.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

A big part of why non-Scots (here meaning Scottish nationals) want to wear the kilt has to do with the diaspora mentality.

I believe it is a truism that immigrants often feel the need to identify culturally with the land of their upbringing when they no longer live in that land.

I cannot tell you the number of kilts I have sold to native-born Scots who now reside in America, and who never once thought of buying a kilt in their clan tartan while in Scotland. Yet when they came to live on American shores, they felt the need to own and wear the kilt.

I imagine this to be true of Scots migrating to Canada, Australia, and elsewhere, as well.

How many third, fourth, or fifth generation descendants of Scottish immigrants grew up wearing the kilt, because their dad did it, and their grand-dad, and their great grand-dad?

So, again, it's not about "dressing up as" anything, but about honoring that part of Scottish tradition that Scottish immigrants have brought with them wherever they have settled on this planet.

And Jock, no one is upset with you about giving your opinion. We are just offering ours back!