Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the Kilt isn't 'just clothes'.

[Chirs]

<snip>

(For all those who are offended, please note the wink smiley.)

I have noticed that offence is always found in the ear, and not in the mouth, even when it was intended. Just an observation.

[Bugbear]

I'm thinking about just becoming one of those nature folk, and not having to worry about all this.

[Dale Seago]

(For all those who are offended, please note the wink smiley.)

Certainly not me, with as many years as I've spent going to Japan for martial arts training.

Mind you, I'm sure I unintentionally still frequently bugger things roundly as far as proper etiquette goes; but after a couple of decades I at least have a better sense of what sort of latitude is granted to foreigners.

[CDNSushi]

Certainly not me, with as many years as I've spent going to Japan for martial arts training.

Mind you, I'm sure I unintentionally still frequently bugger things roundly as far as proper etiquette goes; but after a couple of decades I at least have a better sense of what sort of latitude is granted to foreigners.

Generally speaking, you are correct. Although, like anyplace else, there are notable exceptions.

I was reading a book about keigo (Japanese honourific langauge) that related an anecdote about a young, American exchange student who was billeted at the house of a medical doctor. Doctors in Japan are highly respected, and receive the honourific suffix: -sensei (which is usually granted teachers, but also lawyers or lawmakers too). Well, poor girl didn't know any better and called her host father <last name>-san (which would be the rough equivalent of "Mr." or "Ms." in English) instead of <last name>-sensei.

Well, the host father was so insulted that he refused to speak with the girl after that, and the very next morning he phoned the organization that was responsible for the exchange program and demanded that they take this girl back IMMEDIATELY because they just couldn't abide that sort of rudeness and cultural ignorance.

True? Common? Exaggerated? Hard to say, but I have PERSONALLY witnessed this exact situation where a host family evicted a 12-year old American jr. high school student only 2 or 3 days into an exchange. (The circumstances were somewhat similar but also different). Fortunately, my co-teachers and I banded together, took the boy in ourselves and ensured he had a great visit, got to see some wonderful sights, and experienced Japanese culture at its BEST and not its worst.

[Dale Seago]

True? Common? Exaggerated? Hard to say, but I have PERSONALLY witnessed this exact situation where a host family evicted a 12-year old American jr. high school student only 2 or 3 days into an exchange. (The circumstances were somewhat similar but also different). Fortunately, my co-teachers and I banded together, took the boy in ourselves and ensured he had a great visit, got to see some wonderful sights, and experienced Japanese culture at its BEST and not its worst.

And I'm guessing the lad -- at the time at least -- had a most enjoyable experience with no idea at the time how dicey things had been.

Been there, done that. Geez, sometimes I still am tempted to seppuku even though it was nearly a quarter-century ago and it took me the better part of twenty years to even realize what I may have done wrong. Or even that I might have done anything wrong or inappropriate.

[Chirs]

I am currently studying the Japanese Tea Ceremony with a school directly affiliated with the headquarters in Japan. The majority of students around the world are ex-pat Japanese but there is a considerable contingent of gaijin. All of this is to say, I have come to recognise 'the look' that comes with doing things 'not right'. As it turns out, they are being pretty patient with us.

[auld argonian]

21st Century. Global Village. It's to be understood that not everyone gets all of the subtle nuances of all cultures but by now there should be enough awareness that a certain amount of slack should be cut. I would think that just about everybody on the planet can get the message that a visitor is somebody who "ain't from around here" and cannot not be expected to "get" every little widget of social acceptability in the culture.

Thus, the visitor should be sensitive and cautious and, hopefully, well informed when visiting and the hosts should be understanding, polite and honest, when need be, about what goes and what not goes. When explaining some faux pas to a visitor, one need not be offensive and when having it explained to one's self, one need not be offended. Frankly, with very few serious exceptions, the folks who make a big deal out of some perceived insult appear to me to be huffing and puffing just for the sake of calling attention to themselves and their self-appointed status as keepers-of-the-rules.

I guess it's just more fun to act righteous and insulted than it is to be understanding and instructive.

Best

AA

[davedove]

21st Century. Global Village. It's to be understood that not everyone gets all of the subtle nuances of all cultures but by now there should be enough awareness that a certain amount of slack should be cut. I would think that just about everybody on the planet can get the message that a visitor is somebody who "ain't from around here" and cannot not be expected to "get" every little widget of social acceptability in the culture.

Thus, the visitor should be sensitive and cautious and, hopefully, well informed when visiting and the hosts should be understanding, polite and honest, when need be, about what goes and what not goes. When explaining some faux pas to a visitor, one need not be offensive and when having it explained to one's self, one need not be offended. Frankly, with very few serious exceptions, the folks who make a big deal out of some perceived insult appear to me to be huffing and puffing just for the sake of calling attention to themselves and their self-appointed status as keepers-of-the-rules.

I guess it's just more fun to act righteous and insulted than it is to be understanding and instructive.

Best

AA

Therein lies the difference between "giving" offense and "taking" offense. If one intentionally gives offense, then that person in deserving of whatever they receive. However, taking offense is entirely a personal matter; you cannot take offense unless you choose to. More people in this world need to quit taking offense so often and begin to consider the other person. After all, there are all manner of differences in this world; to think everyone else's point of view is the same as yours is completely ridiculous.

[Tobus]

Frankly, with very few serious exceptions, the folks who make a big deal out of some perceived insult appear to me to be huffing and puffing just for the sake of calling attention to themselves and their self-appointed status as keepers-of-the-rules.

I agree, but I think it goes even beyond that for some people. Even in today's world of globalism, multiculturalism, tolerance and political correctness, there are still some folks out there who tend to be xenophobes, monoculturalists, and have a racial/cultural superiority complex. They don't like outsiders, they are extremely protective of their way of life, and they feel threatened by anything that isn't of the conformist mindset. The only legal recourse these people have is to verbally insult or chastise those who represent a threat.

I feel sorry for them. They tend to be traditionalists - and we NEED traditionalists in the world - but they tend to take it too far. Rather than simply try to preserve tradition, they think it's their role to act as protector and [/i]enforcer[/i] of tradition. These people could be a real asset to the preservation of traditions, but instead they allow their emotions to run roughshod over their sense of reason.

This isn't directed any anyone here, of course. I'm talking about the kind of person who would publicly berate someone for wearing a kilt or kick a foreign guest out of a household for not knowing every little cultural nuance. That's just bad behavior, I don't care who you are!

[tripleblessed]

I have mentioned in other posts (warning! opinion approaching at full speed)that it can be dangerous to begin to believe your own PR, and think that one's own thoughts are fact and that EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS or THAT. Groupthink begins to create a paradigm from which no deviation can be allowed.

A good example happened earlier in this thread. MacBean wrote,"Let's look at a few archtypally African-American cultural phenomena: jazz, rock and roll,...". This is a wonderful example of paradigm thinking that "everyone" knows to betrue. Jelly Roll Morton, generally said to be the first arranger of jazz, and often credited with taking music from ragtime to what became jazz, said in person and in writings (here I admit I'm taking the word of others) that his family was not black, they were Creole, with box seats at the opera. He relates that at about 12 he began sneaking away to play piano in the bawdy houses, the famed sportin' houses of Storyville, from late afternoon 'til early morning. The demands of time exceeded his repertoire, and once he had gone through the popular music of the day that everyone wanted to hear, he still had hours left to fill. Necessity being mother to desperation, he did a thing archetypally Scottish - made do with what he had. He said he had in his head all these tunes from Mr. Rossini, and Mr. Verdi, and Mr. Mozart, and he just played them with adjusted time, inverted phrases, flipped chord progressions, etc. His version, not mine. In this, he was simply continuing a tradition as old as music and just as widespread. In the 1680s, if memory serves a Dane named Diderich Buxtehude started a music festival in the German city of Lubeck where he was organist at the Marienkirche. In 1705, J. S.Bach walked 250 miles to hear the music, such was his reputation. He was said to sit at the organ and play for hours without music, improvising on the fly, starting with a phrase, inverting it, adjusting time, and so forth. Hisinfluence comes to us through Bach to Beethoven and Mozart and any who have listened to them.

The Irish have been lilting for quite a long time, but we're told jazz singers "invented" scat. Siberian shamanic singers get together still in a tradition millennia in the making and give demonstrations of their prowess. These include songs that require 7 days to sing, splitting the voice into its overtones to provide accompaniment, and breakneck speed, improvised, often non sequitur rants with or without music, but we're told rap grew grew out of the ghetto life of the 70s and 80s.

It can cause consternation to suggest the possibility of a reality other than the one one is used to, but it can open ones eyes to a whole continuum of available variety which comes back around to show us that people everywhere are people, as they have been now for a while, and (rumor has it) in quite a few places. There is no set of rules saying it has to be this way or that, and only we can decide that human hearts might be more important than what's draped over them or how their owners comport themslves.