Thinking of Leaving

[Frank McGrath]

I always felt, that as a member of the "clan", that I had a voice. I always read the postings, wait five minutes and then reply. A lot of times, I just move on, rather than make an *** of myself. And believe me, It does not take much. Some of the jokes have been a little too much. The argueing.....Well, opinions are like some parts of our anatomy. Some stink and some don't. The Americans are covered by certain freedoms. I have not studied other cultures so I do not know about their rights. Some take it too far. I believe that I have the freedom to keep some opinions to myself. I dont post that often because i have not had anything interesting to say. But, there are things about the group that really frosts me. I did not join the Washington area group because of the name they came up with. DCKS. I sent my information to the local st andrews scociety and have not heard anything back. It's been 4 months.

I wear the kilt for me. No one else. Whay do I have to worry that every time I choose to wear my pipers hose that someone will see it and turn me in. I happen to like them. So, in the interest of time and because my boss is watching me , I bid you all adieu. Maybe we will bump into each other at some venue in the future. I have enough crap in my life already without listening to others petty arguements.

When you argue with a fool, It's hard to tell who's who.

Frank See ya down the road.

[Steve Ashton]

Biblemonkey,

I would like to make sure that you understand something. If you wish to leave the forum that is your choice. We all need to take a break once in a while.

If you want to leave because you don't like something, then speaking up is the right thing to do. You say that threads have been closed because someone reported it to the Moderators. Well, that is what the Report a Post System is all about.

The Forum Moderators do not act as morality cops. They respond only to reports of posts submitted by members. If a post is moved to the cooling off corner then one of your peers, another member, has reported it as a possible rule violation.

The system this forum runs under is that you, the members, will set the tone, the mood of the forum. If you find something wrong, offensive, or in violation of the rules it is up to you to report it.
This is how the staff know what the membership want as limits.

The same applies to something you see which you don't agree with. Report it.

Have you opened a line of communication with the staff? Have you voiced your concerns and attempted to make the forum better?
Remember the old saying, "If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem."?

If more members would talk to the staff the forum would get better. We need the balance of both sides of an issue talking to us. Only then can the Moderators be "Moderate".

We need everyone's input, your suggestions, your complaints. There are ways for every member to speak up. We post the staff roster and we have the Personal Message system. If you don't talk to us, if you remain silent, those who do speak will be the only ones heard.


If you simply want to take a break from the forum I can assure you that when you're ready to come back, and again be an active participant, the forum will still be here.

If however, you don't like how the forum is run, but have not tried your best to make it better, and in disgust post a parting shot of dissatisfaction on the open forum, well, that is what is called a "Farewell Message".


Sir,
This is one of those times when the choice, really and truly, is in your hands.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'm not a moderator, but I do know many who are either current or former moderators. With that in mind, I just thought I'd take this opportunity to clarify something that is perhaps not well understood by many who get notified that one of their posts has been reported for a rule violation.

The policy in place currently with the moderator staff requires them to notify a member any time an posting of theirs is reported to them. This is regardless of whether or not that post is actually in violation of the rules. Heck, even I have been notified on more than one occasion that a posting of mine was reported to the moderators. But more often than not, the moderators look at it and decide what I said was ok and life goes on.

So a notification like that simply means that someone has reported your post. Not that you necessarily have violated any rules. I think it is important to recognize that distinction.

[Chirs]

I hear you biblemonkey. You are right about people taking offence but I think you'll find that this is a culture-wide phenomenon. (Warning: I tend to view the world from a wide, academic perspective. I have little skill when dealing with the individual.) We live in what has been called a "Risk Management" society. Originally, Risk Management was a business model that did exactly what the name would suggest: it managed any possibility of threat to a company. As with most things 'business', this has seeped into the culture and is now a standard mode of interaction at the personal level.

Risk Management is, in my opinion, an unfortunate way of doing things. While it may work well in a corporate environment, it has little to offer at the "human level." RM tends to be a negation; i.e. it is not focused on doing, but on avoiding. Political Correctness is an aspect of RM. Consider: what is it to be PC? To my understanding, PC is all about not offending others. We think about the words we cannot say, the things we cannot do, the clothes we should not wear... everything that needs to be avoided. At no time does it concern itself with what we can say, do, wear... It is a mindset that offers nothing 'good'; it simply tries to avoid all things 'bad'.

The obvious argument that comes to my mind is: Do anything you like so long as no one is offended; everything is good so long as it's not bad. Of course, now that it is written, that argument seems a little trite but it does seem to be a guiding light in our culture at this time. We have become so desperately egalitarian that we are totalitarian in our implementation of it, giving meaning to everything everyone has to say until all becomes meaningless. However, as with all things, this too has a context. We didn't get here without cause. We have a terrible history of ignoring what others have to say, and of offending as if it were the most natural thing, as if we were merely describing the way moss grows on a tree.

Because it is undesirable to direct people in their every action we simply attempt to offer direction away from what is not wanted. This is the model of most laws in our culture: they tell us what to avoid instead of listing all that we can do. Well, at least, that is the idea. Like so many other good ideas, we have taken things a bit too far. Because we have become so focused on managing risk, we are overly focused on what could possibly be offensive. So, rather than seeing a statement made by another as the opinion of that person, we see "that which must not be!" When offence is what we are looking for, we will find it everywhere.

(Please bear in mind that this is only a glimpse at one aspect of some very complex social theories and is in no way complete. Add to this the Culture of Entitlement to begin, then more after that... You get the idea.)

Now, all that being said, I have read your comments are disagree with you most stridently! However, I tend to take the position that everyone is free to hold what opinion they like and, should they avail themselves of the right to express said opinions, they must prepare themselves for what rebuttals may come.

[janderson]

The policy in place currently with the moderator staff requires them to notify a member any time an posting of theirs is reported to them. This is regardless of whether or not that post is actually in violation of the rules. Heck, even I have been notified on more than one occasion that a posting of mine was reported to the moderators. But more often than not, the moderators look at it and decide what I said was ok and life goes on.

So a notification like that simply means that someone has reported your post. Not that you necessarily have violated any rules. I think it is important to recognize that distinction.

I want to second this comment. I would love to expound upon it, but this comment just rings too accurate to me to add anything more.

[Tobus]

If you want to leave because you don't like something, then speaking up is the right thing to do. You say that threads have been closed because someone reported it to the Moderators. Well, that is what the Report a Post System is all about.

The Forum Moderators do not act as morality cops. They respond only to reports of posts submitted by members. If a post is moved to the cooling off corner then one of your peers, another member, has reported it as a possible rule violation.

The system this forum runs under is that you, the members, will set the tone, the mood of the forum. If you find something wrong, offensive, or in violation of the rules it is up to you to report it.
This is how the staff know what the membership want as limits.

Steve, I applaud the logic behind this, but I wonder if what's actually setting the "limits" is one or two people who tend to report anything and everything they think is worth reporting.

In other words, is it "the membership" as a whole that's setting the tone, or just a couple of sensitive people? It's kinda like the old adage of the chain only being as strong as its weakest link. If 99 members are enjoying a thread but 1 person reports it, and the thread gets shut down, is it really what "the membership" wants?

I too have been concerned of late with the 'poofing' of threads that were just starting to get interesting. I think some people just can't tolerate a difference of opinions, even if it's still well within the norms of social interaction, and so they report it.

It's gotten to the point where it's dangerous to have an opinion around here, lest someone cry foul and get the discussion closed. And while it may keep the place civil, it certainly does not lead to interesting conversation. As an administrator of several internet forums myself, I do understand there's a delicate balance to be upheld, and it's sometimes a fine line between interesting and nasty. I also appreciate the fact that it's your forum, and it's ultimately up to you. You can't please all the people all the time. But in this case, I think that a very vocal minority is using the 'report' feature to hush the majority, which seems to go against your vision of who should set the tone here.

(For the record, even though I have many of the same issues as other posters here, I fully plan on sticking around because of the good quality kilt-related content.)

Respectfully,
Tobus

[tripleblessed]

A wise man once said that if you find yourself in agreement with the majority, you're probably wrong. Frequent exceptions, of course, but much truth. I will agree I am baffled at times by reactions to posts, mine or others, and would prefer a more robust, free-ranging discussion among civil, respectful, people. I've learned I don't always get what I want. If it gets non-productive, I just back out of a thread, as it sometimes is clear the objectors have not or will not read what was written, but instead rant about what they are afraid was meant (or maybe hope was meant). I'm sure that my lack of understanding of the process of being a moderator here does not mean there isn't care, tough decisions, and prodigious work involved. I do think attempting to eliminate all controversy eliminates the purpose and definition of "forum", and participation in lively discussions can be very educational.

I know that when I thought I might be the cause of a thread closing, I PMed the warning moderator and asked advice. Composing this post, I realize I have failed to do so when I wasn't the possible cause, so apologies to mods for my un-posted objections to proceedings.

I have almost always been ahead of the curve, or behind the curve, or on the fringe one way or another, and it can get tiresome to get continually slammed, but in engaging with those who disagree, I learn. I have spent much of my adult life teaching in non-standard venues things that scare many people. It has been tough, but if I believe it's valuable, I HAVE to put up with the scorn and abuse to function in that capacity. And it's great to get a phone call from someone you never met who says, "I called you on the recommendation of a friend, you don't know me, you gave me three hours of your time, and a year later I can say that what you told me changed my life and I am exceedingly grateful".

I can only say I would be saddened by the departure of anyone who has contributed. It's not always immediately evident that your opinion and contributions are valued. I would ask that you reconsider, I will understand if you don't.

[Nighthawk]

I will admit that I haven't been as active here for the same reason. I think I know the threads you're talking about. No one was arguing, no one was espousing one particular religious belief or political system over another, nor comparing one belief or system to another. The threads were closed because there was the hint of the potential that it could happen. Ultimately, we don't own the forum (even though we make it happen and it wouldn't exist without us...) so we have no say in how the rules are enforced. But it does seem to me that if we're holding a civil and polite discussion, with no hints of degenerating into a slam fest (like the threads I'm thinking of that got closed down... just because...) then why not allow them? We're not children. Biblemonkey, I'm glad you started this thread, because I was thinkin' it. If you do decide to leave this forum, you still have my email address. Cheers, brother. (And I would like to point out here that I am a pagan minister. I just referred Biblemonkey as "brother." If a Bible monkey and a pagan minister can be friends, then that has got to say something positive about the maturity and tolerance of the people on this board!)

It's gotten to the point where it's dangerous to have an opinion around here, lest someone cry foul and get the discussion closed. And while it may keep the place civil, it certainly does not lead to interesting conversation.

Respectfully,
Tobus

The word "succinct" comes to my mind when I read this...

[AFS1970]

Generally I do not reply if most of my opinions have already been posted by other posters. However I think adding one more post in this thread might just serve to help in some way "set the tone of the forum".

I too think that the moderation has been over the top sometimes. Most of the times that I am aware of have to do with a single rule that is often quoted and yet I can not find a single case of it actually being broken by anyone here. That being said, I fully understand that it is the job of the moderators to respond to member complaints and enforce the rules.

I do think that in many cases it is the rule themselves which are the problem. The tone of the forum is not set by the membership, it is set by the rules, which are fairly strong. While many of the rules are the same or variations to those that come with many other on-line forums, they do not represent a community standard, they represent an owner's standard. This is not always a bad thing. However I do not feel that I in any way set the tone for a site that runs under such a standard.

I read the forums almost daily, although I do not post often. I have read threads which ended up banned or in the cooling off corner and most of the times I can not figure out why. I often wonder if when a complaint is made, the default action is to shut the thread down. It generally appears that way.

I can think of one time that I know of that a member had a problem with a post of mine, it was a minor problem at best and the member PM'd me. We wrote back and forth a couple of times and figured out that neither of us had a problem with the other one, but were looking at a (non-kilt related) issue from different perspectives. Surprise, surprise, we handled it like grown ups and never needed to bother the moderators with what ended up as a non issue.

Less than a month after I joined XMTS, I went to an event that several members were also at. One that I met there gave me the advice that I should just use the site as a place to keep track of events and don't get involved in any discussions. Had I done that this would have been a very boring site for me indeed.

Biblemonkey, we do not know each other at all, so I can not comment except in a very general way that I do not like to see anyone leave discussions forums. However I completely understand what you are saying and where you are coming from and I certainly would not blame you if you do leave.

I think the length of this post has made up for my lack of posting. I also consider it a plus that I got here in time to post before the thread was sent to the corner for punishment.

[Jock Scot]

Do you know I was reading through an old thread of mine that I started here and I could not help but notice the number of people who had contributed then and don't now and I really felt a sense of loss.Silly really I suppose, people come and go in life and why should a website be any different?

So what am I saying? It is OK to voice an opinion,it is OK to voice a firm opinion, it is OK to have a differing opinion, it is OK to differ as long as we are courteous and it is OK to agree to differ. Sometimes the curse of all websites like this strikes, where the tone of voice is not able to be heard, which can, does and always will cause misunderstandings.

Stay or go, please yourself, no one is holding a gun to your head. But for sure, we all have something to learn from each other and we are all the poorer if anyone should go.