Thinking of Leaving

[McClef]

I would assume that when contacted by a moderator if one were able to effectively argue that they had not in fact broken a rule, then the issue would go away entirely, but I have no first hand knowledge.

Oh indeed and we have received some very vigorous defenses which have made us find in favour of the "accused."

(Mod Hat off) I think this thread has been therapeutic for all concerned - folk have been able to say things and get them off their chests and some mistaken notions about the system have been explained and also it brings home even more to those of us on the staff side who have to deal with complaints how sensitive things can be for both sides. No system is perfect and it's impossible to please everyone but we can but do our best.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

*****

[Steve Ashton]

Folks,
I know I said that I would pull out of this thread. I did not want to unduly influence the mood of the discussion. But there have been things said, that have been implied, and which have cast aspersions on the people who have volunteered their time and energy to keep this forum polite and respectful.


Posted by Bing:
"There's no argument because (in my experience) there is no opportunity to argue. One is contacted by the mods who informs you of the report, alleged infraction and then disappears behind the scenes to continue the trial via PM with the rest of Star Chamber. When all is done a mod reappears in your PM box to announce the verdict and pass sentence if appropriate."


Actually Bing, this is incorrect.

In your case you were contacted by the Moderators and given ample opportunity to speak, to present a defense or to state your position. You chose not to take part in the discussion, present any evidence, or even to state your position.

I have just checked the proceedings in the case you refer to and your response to the Moderators was a single, short, terse sentence.
If you wish I can quote you here.

The fact remains that the first thing the moderators do when they receive a report is to contact everyone involved. A PM is sent with a simple statement that a report has been received. If a rule violation is suspected the rule is quoted.
The person who's post was reported is then offered the chance to respond in any way they feel best.
Each response is posted to the deliberations and that input becomes part of the discussion.
It really is a two way communication process. If someone chooses not to avail themselves of the system and contribute to the process we can't force them.

There is no cause for the Moderators to be met with outrage. It is not uncommon to get responses that sound like "How dare someone file a report against me. I'm so angry you can take your report and shove it."



Folks, I wish to stress that although the deliberations of the Moderators are not posted publicly out of respect for the feelings of those involved they are not secret. If, at any time someone wishes that the full transcript of their deliberations be made public, I can assure you that the Moderators have nothing to be ashamed of.

If some members wish to believe that there is some super secret cabal of Moderators hiding behind the scenes then I can't stop them from believing that.
The facts however are that each case of deliberations is handled individually and as openly, fairly and honestly as humanly possible.
No, we don't blab names about, Would you really want us to start doing that? I think not.

If you don't like the system we use here you have quite a few options. You can join in discussions like this, state your position, ask questions and discuss the issues. Or you can simply be upset, post on the open forum your disdain of the system, or even post things that imply or cast aspersions on others. Or you can simply leave. The choice really is yours.

My concern is that there have been posts to this thread that cast aspersions on the staff of the forum. These folks are first of all members here. They deserve the same respect they offer to everyone else. They have volunteered to do a job and when they are subjected to some of the comments I have seen here I tend to get a bit defensive.

This has been a very good thread. I know that there are some who dislike our system here. OK, fine. Speak up.
But when accusations against the Moderators are made, when they are treated with disrespect, then I must say something.

[Father Bill]

Fellows, a thread I started went sour once, and I was contacted with great courtesy by the Mods. I was deeply embarassed although it was not my post that had been the problem, and I very much appreciated the courtesy and kindness with which I was treated.

I need to say that publicly, and hopefully kindly in the face of criticisms and strong feelings. I often deal with those emotions in my study at the church, but believe me, it's tougher to do here publicly when folks can't see that they have my attention.

Just know that for every unhappy camper, there are a hundred singing around the campfire, and while we all sometimes have concerns with the cooks, we're ultimately very greatful to be fed.

Pax et benedicite!

[Burly Brute]

Fellows, a thread I started went sour once, and I was contacted with great courtesy by the Mods. I was deeply embarassed although it was not my post that had been the problem, and I very much appreciated the courtesy and kindness with which I was treated.

I need to say that publicly, and hopefully kindly in the face of criticisms and strong feelings. I often deal with those emotions in my study at the church, but believe me, it's tougher to do here publicly when folks can't see that they have my attention.

Just know that for every unhappy camper, there are a hundred singing around the campfire, and while we all sometimes have concerns with the cooks, we're ultimately very greatful to be fed.

Pax et benedicite!

***

[Duke of Delrio]

Ladies and Gentlemen, please! This is a forum, in which participation is purely voluntary, and without cost, except of course to the owner. It is able to exist as it is by virtue of a few, very simple rules which are in the keeping of moderators who are, if not well known to each of us, certainly well identified to all of us. To equate their responsibility or decision process to Star Chamber is to go beyond even the license of hyperbole.

A reported post is NOT a crime, and action taken subsequent to a reported post is no more analogous to a criminal prosecution and defense than an Easter egg hunt is like to hard rock mining.

I have occasionally wondered as to why the report trigger has been pulled on some posts so quickly, but that is a member's action, not the mods.
By our participation in this forum, under ITS rules, we are tacitly asking the moderators to deliberate over every reported post. For goodness sake, let's not beat them about the head, neck and shoulders when they do what the rules require. I, for one, will reserve judgement on their perfection or imperfection until I am able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

[Woodsheal]

I agree with Steve: the folks busting on the Mods are out of line. The Mods aren't the problem. The difficulty as I see it (yeah, this IS getting repetitive!) is the cluster of hyper-sensitive souls who bring threads to a screeching halt by punching the 'report' button at the slightest hint of offense, real or perceived.

Repeating again, these folks should debate an issue within the on-going thread, not deep-six it over their hurt feelings.

Anyways, that being said (again!), I think THIS particular thread has reached that certain point:

[Lyle1]

I agree with Steve: the folks busting on the Mods are out of line. The Mods aren't the problem. The difficulty as I see it (yeah, this IS getting repetitive!) is the cluster of hyper-sensitive souls who bring threads to a screeching halt by punching the 'report' button at the slightest hint of offense, real or perceived.

Repeating again, these folks should debate an issue within the on-going thread, not deep-six it over their hurt feelings.

Anyways, that being said (again!), I think THIS particular thread has reached that certain point:

I agree with you to a point, but I do not think that using the report button is necessarily wrong.

I reported one thread some time ago., and I explained my reasons quite thoroughly (the thread was completely off topic and very political). I did not see any purpose in arguing with the OP over a topic that was clearly against the rules. My wife does not allow me to argue politics with my misguided brother, and I choose not to argue politics with others.

I feel strongly that any report should include specific reasons for the report action, including the numbers of specific posts if the thread is lengthy. I do not think a thread should be at all effected simply because a report was filed. If the report does not include enough information for the mods to make a decision, I think the thread should continue while the mods investigate and deliberate. To allow a thread to be closed or quarantined simply because a report was lodged is disingenuous.

[CDNSushi]

Any rules, be they online forum rules or real-life laws may not always have the desired effect or consequence as the reason for which they were first conceived.

I would say, if there truly IS a problem with an excessive number of inane reports being sent by these mysterious "super-sensitive" individuals (and I'm not sold on the fact that there are, necessarily)... then perhaps an adjustment of the "EVERY reported post gets actioned" rule would be best amended. Again, I know of no other online forum that takes it upon itself to treat each and every report with equal importance, especially if it is perceived to be vacuous. But that's up to the mods to say, whether or not they are dealing with dozens of silly reports every day. And if they are indeed doing so, ARE they okay with having to deal with each one in such a manner? Not being a mod, I really can't comment on these things.

From a user's perspective, it IS comforting to know that EVERY single report gets addressed and actioned, but I would also fully understand and be alright with if it weren't done that way.

[kc8ufv]

Any rules, be they online forum rules or real-life laws may not always have the desired effect or consequence as the reason for which they were first conceived.

I would say, if there truly IS a problem with an excessive number of inane reports being sent by these mysterious "super-sensitive" individuals (and I'm not sold on the fact that there are, necessarily)... then perhaps an adjustment of the "EVERY reported post gets actioned" rule would be best amended. Again, I know of no other online forum that takes it upon itself to treat each and every report with equal importance, especially if it is perceived to be vacuous. But that's up to the mods to say, whether or not they are dealing with dozens of silly reports every day. And if they are indeed doing so, ARE they okay with having to deal with each one in such a manner? Not being a mod, I really can't comment on these things.

From a user's perspective, it IS comforting to know that EVERY single report gets addressed and actioned, but I would also fully understand and be alright with if it weren't done that way.

Well, there's always the possibility of a quota system. I used to moderate and metamoderate Slashdot from time to time. When it was my turn, I had 5 points I could use within 24 hours. I would recieve the option of moderating more often if I didn't use all 5 points every time. I could only moderate a post once, and I couldn't moderate in a thread I was participating in. If I moderated in a thread, then commented, my moderation was nullified, and I would be out the moderation point. The purpose was to bring the best posts to the top. I could moderate any post up or down 1 point by specifying any of about half a dozen reasons. I would metamoderate (evaluate the initial moderations) almost daily. The system would select 10 random moderations from the previous day, and I would indicate that it was either right or wrong. It wouldn't show usernames when doing this, and it was best to do it without looking at the threads, though, I saw that as impossible in the case of certain moderation flags, such as -1 Offtopic.

Another system I've used, and kinda like (wouldn't be surprised from some of these comments if others here would like it as well) is what's used on Wrong Planet. Instead of a report button next to each post, there is a thread on the site discussion subforum called "MODERATOR ATTENTION: How to get help when you need it". It is stickied, and in the first post lists different moderators that can be PMed. If you have a problem such as a new user spamming the board with threads, or PMs, you post that problem in the thread. All moderators follow that thread. It really makes it quick to have action taken against spammers. Also, everything is kept public. Generally, after an issue is resolved, posts about the issue are deleted, so as not to clog the thread.