The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[DWFII]

The problem I see with that model is this. You are Starting at a stratospheric level in pricing.

How much do you make an hour? Should a child in Vietnam be forced to work for 10¢ an hour because you don't think shoemakers should make a working wage? *

How is a pair of shoes that cost $15.00 to make better than a pair that cost $8.00 to make?

People who've never tasted, or developed a taste for rib eye are inevitably the most zealous in their defense of "mystery meat" hamburger.

I shop at WalMart as well as Neiman-Marcus.

Some things in life...some experiences in life...are worth savouring and treasuring. A man can be so parsimonious that his whole life becomes crabbed.

*No offense intended, just that we all tend to think the wages that we are paid are justified...even if we are digging a ditch and that the wages others are paid are exorbitant even if they are brain surgeons.

Cheap shoes, cheap kilts...same same...one way or the other they are made possible in our society by exploiting poor people in other countries

[RockyR]

How much do you make an hour? Should a child in Vietnam be forced to work for 10¢ an hour because you don't think shoemakers should make a working wage? *

How is a pair of shoes that cost $15.00 to make better than a pair that cost $8.00 to make?

People who've never tasted, or developed a taste for rib eye are inevitably the most zealous in their defense of "mystery meat" hamburger.

I shop at WalMart as well as Neiman-Marcus.

Some things in life...some experiences in life...are worth savouring and treasuring. A man can be so parsimonious that his whole life becomes crabbed.

*No offense intended, just that we all tend to think the wages that we are paid are justified...even if we are digging a ditch and that the wages others are paid are exorbitant even if they are brain surgeons.

Cheap shoes, cheap kilts...same same...one way or the other they are made possible in our society by exploiting poor people in other countries

I'd like to point out a few things...

1. I make "cheap kilts" (your words) in this country by my own hand, as well as hire employees, paid a fair wage, to make those same kilts. I use cloth woven in the UK where the workers are paid a fair wage. I have not exploited anyone.

2. "Cheap kilts" are not made the same way or to the same quality standards as traditional hand sewn kilts. If the consumer values traditional quality, they will seek out kilts OF that quality (who should be described as such). If the consumer values price above quality, then they will seek out a particular price point and must understand that 'you get what you pay for'. So long as retailers ACCURATELY DESCRIBE what they are selling, then the consumer is well informed and that decision is theirs alone.

Don't get upset with retailers who offer a fair (and accurately described) product for a fair price... get upset with consumers for not having the highest quality standards and for having a lower budget. Also, get upset at the retailers who lie and deceive customers by labeling goods ambiguously.

3. If you shop at Walmart, then you are supporting the exploitation you are railing against in these posts. You may not buy $8 shoes at Walmart, but you are supporting their business practices. They are an octopus... you feed one arm of the octopus, you feed the whole octopus.

[DWFII]

I'd like to point out 2 things...

1. I make "cheap kilts" (your words) in this country by my own hand, as well as hire employees, paid a fair wage, to make those same kilts. I use cloth woven in the UK where the workers are paid a fair wage. I have not exploited anyone.

2. If you shop at Walmart, then you are supporting the exploitation you are railing against in these posts. You may not buy $8 shoes at Walmart, but you are supporting their business practices. They are an octopus... you feed one arm of the octopus, you feed the whole octopus.

Point taken....although I don't shop at WalMart regularly or even by choice. I don't shop at Neiman-Marcus regularly either. I don't even know where the nearest one is located. It was a metaphor...a metaphor for establishing and respecting priorities in your life.

But don't take it so personally...I was talking about shoes.

That said, if your product is as "gateway" as you claim it is, it has to be...on some level (if only price)...competing with imports and WalMart level goods. Either you're not paying yourself or your workers a wage that will sustain you through all kinds of business cycles, that will provide you a "living" and grow your business, or you are making up the difference in ways I don't understand and probably don't want to contemplate.

And just because a fabric comes from the UK doesn't make it quality.

I'm not looking to make this a fight...as I said, I was talking about what I know--shoes. But I also have been in business for myself for 40 + years , own my own home free and clear, and have no outstanding debts.

And I still wear 100% Scottish woolen kilts. Oh...and $1500.00 bespoke shoes too.

[Java]

I believe what is going to keep those mills open is what is going on right now. Kilts made in several materials, so they can be sold in different price ranges. It has been made abundantly clear to me that this makes me a cross-dresser in a skirt. So be it. I enjoy wearing a kilt, and plan to budget for better and better ones as I go along. I try to buy the best quality stuff I can, so that I don't have to replace it as often. If the only "real" kilts available were $500 and up handmade kilts, I would never have learned that I enjoy wearing them, and would have no plans to ever purchase one.

Look, I'm a conservative guy. I believe that those who are successful in this world earned what they have. I believe they are to be respected. They are what keep the world running. They employ us. We need them. But lest they start sounding like a bunch of medieval English warlords, they must also remember that they need us. If the couple hundred thousand people in the world that can afford $1200 shoes want to wear them, that's fine, but they need to remember that there are close to 7 billion of us out here that can't afford them, and if all "real" shoes cost that much, then we would all be shoeless.

As for the question, I would like to see more of the cotton/poly and canvas contemporary kilts available with wider more traditional looking aprons.

Have Fun,
Java

[DWFII]

If the couple hundred thousand people in the world that can afford $1200 shoes want to wear them, that's fine, but they need to remember that there are close to 7 billion of us out here that can't afford them, and if all "real" shoes cost that much, then we would all be shoeless.

As for the question, I would like to see more of the cotton/poly and canvas contemporary kilts available with wider more traditional looking aprons.

Have Fun,
Java

When all shoes were handmade...before plastics and cardboard and glue replaced Traditional methods...and as recently as the late 1800's, a really high quality shoe may have run $100.00.

Think about that...and people think they should still be able to buy a good pair of shoes for $100.00. How's that happen? Who's fooling who? What kind of mind-set/rationale makes people think or demand that?

And what's a 19th century C note in today's money?

Being able to afford things today...if you really and truly want quality...is the same as it was in 1880. It is a matter of setting realistic priorities and saving for them or working for them simply because you have a recognition of what quality is and why it has value.

And that is about as far as you can get from our modern I'm-entitled-and-I've-got-to-have-it-now, short-attention-span culture.

"Cheap" doesn't start in the pocketbook...it starts in the heart--in an indifference to what makes life valuable and worth living. It starts with a lack of understanding and respect for those things that connect us and make us human. Devaluing manual labour--the Trades--devaluing the connection between the heart and the hand (as is standard in any industrial setting), all contribute.

And from there it spreads to every corner of our lives such that we so become pinched in spirit and perception that we cannot...will not...allow ourselves to recognize quality or worth, in goods or in idea or in people..

We don't all have to wear $1000.00 bespoke, hand made kilts, or $7000.00 bespoke, fully canvased suits or $300.00 shirts or even $5000.00 bespoke shoes (which is where the top end really is)--priorities are different for everybody. But to the extent that we cannot even recognize the intrinsic quality and worth of such items...won't allow ourselves to even acknowledge the worth of the work or skill that goes into them...we are poorer than if we had spent the same amount of money on title to the Golden Gate Bridge.

[CMcG]

I have tremendous respect for craftspeople, traditional methods, and the items they make. I just can't afford them. If this were the 1800s, I would probably be running around barefoot. Probably wouldn't have been kilted either...

[DWFII]

I have tremendous respect for craftspeople, traditional methods, and the items they make. I just can't afford them. If this were the 1800s, I would probably be running around barefoot. Probably wouldn't have been kilted either...

"Affording" isn't the issue here...although that may be sometimes hard to see. Most of us have so arranged our priorities that if we really looked hard at what we were buying we find that everything was unaffordable.

Because most of the time "affordable", insofar as it is a synonym for "cheap" is actually more expensive than quality.

Can you as a person...can we as a society...really afford to buy disposable anything?

The problem is Rocky's octopus...

In any consumer culture...in any manufacturing context...cheap begets cheaper. Competition guarantees that. And "cheapest"...read most affordable...is always 10¢ an hour SE Asia.

[Java]

"Cheap" doesn't start in the pocketbook...it starts in the heart--in an indifference to what makes life valuable and worth living. It starts with a lack of understanding and respect for those things that connect us and make us human. Devaluing manual labour--the Trades--devaluing the connection between the heart and the hand (as is standard in any industrial setting), all contribute.

I think we have a basic misunderstanding here. It is not that we, the great unwashed, don't see and understand a difference in quality when we see it. It's just that I buy my shoes (and my kilts) with the same money that I feed and cloth my wife and family with. I am a pastor, and I live from paycheck to paycheck. Yes I chose this lot in life, nobody chose it for me, and I am happy with it. So before spending years saving for what you would consider a "real" kilt, I decided to buy a few less expensive, sturdier kilts that I can get more use out of, to see if I enjoy being kilted. Lo and behold I've found that I do enjoy it. For now, I will continue to value and support a few folks here in the states that are laboring over their sewing machines just for me. I'll start putting away a little at a time so that one day I'll be able to do my part to keep that mill open. In the meantime, it doesn't hurt my feelings at all being called a cross-dresser by anyone who can in any way connect the quality of their stuff with what "makes life valuable and worth living."

Have Fun,
Tom

[DWFII]

I think we have a basic misunderstanding here. It is not that we, the great unwashed, don't see and understand a difference in quality when we see it. It's just that I buy my shoes (and my kilts) with the same money that I feed and cloth my wife and family with. I am a pastor, and I live from paycheck to paycheck. Yes I chose this lot in life, nobody chose it for me, and I am happy with it. So before spending years saving for what you would consider a "real" kilt, I decided to buy a few less expensive, sturdier kilts that I can get more use out of, to see if I enjoy being kilted. Lo and behold I've found that I do enjoy it. For now, I will continue to value and support a few folks here in the states that are laboring over their sewing machines just for me. I'll start putting away a little at a time so that one day I'll be able to do my part to keep that mill open. In the meantime, it doesn't hurt my feelings at all being called a cross-dresser by anyone who can in any way connect the quality of their stuff with what "makes life valuable and worth living."

Have Fun,
Tom

I have never called you a cross-dresser and I suspect that to conflate my remarks with that perspective is just a variation on the old...and in my view largely discredited..."kilt police" bugaboo.

I would urge a more careful reading of my remarks and hope that you would not put words in my mouth.

Beyond that, you are to be applauded for having your priorities straight. I couldn't have afforded any kilt when I was raising children, either...or even for many years thereafter. I have worked...meaning sweat, tears, blood, and muscle aches...all my life for what amounts to a 19th century wage in the 20th and 21st.

I have lived on the edge of society and have never been what you would call even middle-class.

I have had dirt under my fingernails every day for the last 40 years.

So I would counsel you to save your cynicism for someone else. I come by my views honestly.

[RockyR]

SNIP...
That said, if your product is as "gateway" as you claim it is, it has to be...on some level (if only price)...competing with imports and WalMart level goods. Either you're not paying yourself or your workers a wage that will sustain you through all kinds of business cycles, that will provide you a "living" and grow your business, or you are making up the difference in ways I don't understand and probably don't want to contemplate.

I'm paid fairly (I'm not a millionaire, but I get by) as are my employees (paid roughly 60 to 80% MORE than standard 'cut and sew' operations in the US pay their employees). The difference is in making a product which can be made relatively quickly and stands ON IT'S OWN and has no direct comparison. Ours aren't meant to be direct competition to Pakistani kilts. I learned a long time ago that there will always be someone willing to do it faster / cheaper, so I make it better (and DIFFERENT) and let the chips fall where they may.

And just because a fabric comes from the UK doesn't make it quality.

I didn't say it did. However, in my professional opinion, if you compare the tartan cloth (PV OR wool) made in the UK to the tartan cloth coming outwith the Uk, there is a noticable difference. I have swatches of cloth from Asia, Pakistan, India, etc. in my shop to show customers if they ask about the $50 kilts they saw on Ebay. I'm MORE than happy to let them compare both side by side and judge the quality for themselves.

I'm not looking to make this a fight...as I said, I was talking about what I know--shoes. But I also have been in business for myself for 40 + years , own my own home free and clear, and have no outstanding debts.

And I still wear 100% Scottish woolen kilts. Oh...and $1500.00 bespoke shoes too.

No fight intended here either. Just calling it as I see it and correcting statements.

What are you guys doing inside on a beautiful Saturday anyway!?!? Get out there in your kilts! (Our store is open, so I have to be here... that's my excuse).