White Tie Kilt Dress

[macwilkin]

http://www.jocks.co.za/images/sirthoslaw.jpg

Thomas Law, Chief of the Caledonian Society of Johannesburg, South Africa who assisted the Marquis of Tullibardine in raising two regiments, The Scottish Horse and the Transvaal Scottish Volunteers, which are still serving as a militia/reserve unit in the South African Defence Forces:

http://www.jocks.co.za/museum.htm

I find his attire quite interesting (white tie, black waistcoat) and germane to the topic.

Regards,

Todd

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The President was lambasted for that baggy and ill fitting White Tie outfit.

I am afraid to say that there is no equivalent Kilt outfit to Full Evening Dress which is known a White Tie and Tails. This form of Dress is proscribed more than probably any other form of dress remaining in society today.
We here would call it a uniform. I should not be changed or altered.

White Tie is only properly worn with the Tail Jacket. The Tuxedo is Black Tie only.

I made a post to the end of the "can you wear a PC in the daytime" thread explaining the difference.

The Doublets are a Military form of formal Dress but are still not suitable when the invitation says "White Tie" or "Full Evening Dress".

And of course if the Invitation dictates the form of dress then that is what should be worn.

I'm afraid that this is one time when the Kilt would be inappropriate.

I quite agree.

Unless the invitation specifically states:

White Tie
Uniform
Highland Attire

then the wearing of the kilt (or a military uniform) would be inappropriate. This would be especially so if the event were being held outside of Scotland.

[JSFMACLJR]

The President was lambasted for that baggy and ill fitting White Tie outfit.

I am afraid to say that there is no equivalent Kilt outfit to Full Evening Dress which is known a White Tie and Tails. This form of Dress is proscribed more than probably any other form of dress remaining in society today.
We here would call it a uniform. I should not be changed or altered.

White Tie is only properly worn with the Tail Jacket. The Tuxedo is Black Tie only.

I made a post to the end of the "can you wear a PC in the daytime" thread explaining the difference.

The Doublets are a Military form of formal Dress but are still not suitable when the invitation says "White Tie" or "Full Evening Dress".

And of course if the Invitation dictates the form of dress then that is what should be worn.

I'm afraid that this is one time when the Kilt would be inappropriate.

I am reluctant to post in a discussion concerning proper dress because I am such a notorious snob, but actually you are quite mistaken and your "rules" just aren't correct!

Let's look at your errors one at a time.

1. "I am afraid to say that there is no equivalent Kilt outfit to Full Evening Dress which is known a White Tie and Tails."

Your opinion, but not the opinion of those who know about such matters. There certainly is a Highland equivalent to the tail coat and white tie: it is a doublet and either a lace jabot or bow tie (black, or for gentlemen from Perthshire, white!).

2. "The Doublets are a Military form of formal Dress but are still not suitable when the invitation says "White Tie" or "Full Evening Dress".

A doublet is not a military coat, not at all. The Lord Chamberlain's Dress Regulations are available for you to read in a number of previous threads. These certainly cover doublets at white tie events. MacKinnon of Dunakin writes that "formal evening wear consits of...superfine or velvet doublet, tunic, or coatee (in black, green, or various coloured velvets)." I find Dunakin readily accessible and straightforward...and always correct.

3. "I'm afraid that this is one time when the Kilt would be inappropriate."

Why? Highland gentlemen usually wear the kilt to white tie balls and such. I've been to these events; I've seen them being worn. The grand Highland balls are all "white tie." Gentlemen are denied entrance to these events if they are not properly dressed. That is a known fact. There just isn't any "wiggle room" with this one!

I have a photo in my collection of HM The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh, The Duke of Rothesay, and HM King Carl Gustav of Sweden, at a State Dinner at the Palace of Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh. State dinners are "white tie" events. TRH's were both in the kilt. The King of Sweden was wearing a tailcoat and white tie. I can give you many, many examples. When I used to be the Executive Assistant to the Secretary of State of Canada I personally attended several "white tie" functions in Ottawa. I usually wore the kilt, and as the Secretary of State of Canada is in charge of questions of dress and protocol in the Dominion, I had it on the highest authority that this was correct attire.

I wish I knew where you get the information to make such blanket statements about the inappropriateness of the kilt. It just is wrong, pure and simple. Call me a dreaded "traditionalist," or whatever, but you are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off base here.

Kind regards,
Sandford MacLean

[The Wizard of BC]

Yes, the Wiki article does state that the Kilt may be worn to White Tie events when it is part of "National Dress".
What the article fails to stress however is that "National Dress" implies that you are attending as an Official Representative of the Nation.

Now, If you regularly travel with diplomatic plates on your car, if you are a member of Scottish Parliment, or have been specifically invited to represent the country of Scotland, then Full Highland Dress would apply to you and you may wear the Kilt.

And Sandford, in the cases you quote the Kilt is indeed appropriate as it is being worn as a part of "National Dress".

[JSFMACLJR]

But Steve, I don't wear the kilt as "National Dress!" True, I am of Scottish descent, but I am not wearing a costume.

[george7]

I agree that a kilt might go against the form of a strict interpretation of white tie but think there must be an equivalently formal kilted garment. Perhaps white tie isn't the pinnacle of formality that it's perceived to be.

[CDNSushi]

Clarifying question then for Steve & Sanford: Do you then consider the kilt to be "national dress" with respect to Canada?

[JSFMACLJR]

I quite agree. Unless the invitation specifically states:

White Tie
Uniform
Highland Attire

then the wearing of the kilt (or a military uniform) would be inappropriate.

My friend MacMillan of Rathdown differ very slightly on this point, a mere issue of semantics. I maintain that the kilt is appropriate at "white tie" events even if the invitation is rather vague and omits the "Uniform, and Highland attire" bit. I have received invitations to balls in Scotland that only stated "white tie." Only the English were in tail coats!

I have two ball invites before me right now. One, to a local art museum ball, reads "White Tie or Black Tie." All bases covered there! We chose not to attend this year, but in the past I have always worn the kilt, as have my father and grandfather when they attended. My grandfather was one of the founders of the ball in question.

The other invitation is to the Royal Caledonian Ball, to be held in London on 1 May. Dress: "Gentlemen: Highland Dress, White Tie, Mess Kit, Hunt or tail Coats (no dinner jackets.)." The Trustees and Committee folow MacMillan of Rathdown here, in spelling out all options.

I maintain, though, that this isn't necessary nor always followed; that "white tie" on an invitation alone does not EXCLUDE the wearing of Highland Dress. I know of no exceptions to this.

Sandford

[piperdbh]

Sandy,
How do you get invited to all this stuff? I'm lucky if I get invited to a watermelon seed spitting contest.

[Friday]

The Canadian Heritage website (bottom of the page) states:

"In all circumstances, national costumes can replace ceremonial wear. Out of courtesy to guests, this should be indicated in the invitation.
Example: DRESS - LOUNGE SUIT OR NATIONAL DRESS
[From "Diplomatic and Consular Relations and Protocol" External Affairs, 1985]."


Now I do see there could be a problem with citing one countries diplomatic rule and implying that they have any bearing on other countries and possible even the rule for other social events.

Additional input: wikipedia also provides insight into Highland attire at the English Court. I understand this is about as formal as you can get. It started out as military uniform for Clan Chiefs but in 1908 was relaxed a include Highland Gentlemen. It wounder if they still allow the pistol?