Royal Regiment of Scotland

[M. A. C. Newsome]

8, they are real kilts

Just a couple of points.

1) Historically, the male kilt has been made from an average of four yards, single width. The first tailored kilt that survives for us, c. 1794, was a military kilt, for the Gordon Highlanders, and contained just a bit over three yards of cloth. The idea that only eight yard kilts are "real kilts" is just not accurate, and frankly a bit insulting to those who make and wear kilts with less yardage.

2) Even today, I would hazard a guess that most military kilts contain less than eight yards. A lot of military kilts I have personally examined have actually had closer to six yards of cloth. There is no magic rule that says a kilt must have a certain amount of material in it.

[Jock Scot]

Just a couple of points.

1) Historically, the male kilt has been made from an average of four yards, single width. The first tailored kilt that survives for us, c. 1794, was a military kilt, for the Gordon Highlanders, and contained just a bit over three yards of cloth. The idea that only eight yard kilts are "real kilts" is just not accurate, and frankly a bit insulting to those who make and wear kilts with less yardage.

2) Even today, I would hazard a guess that most military kilts contain less than eight yards. A lot of military kilts I have personally examined have actually had closer to six yards of cloth. There is no magic rule that says a kilt must have a certain amount of material in it.

You are of course quite correct, Matt. However, I suspect that NJ may well have had his tongue placed firmly in his cheek when he made that statement. Also I suspect if you asked a Scot what a real kilt was, he would reply that it would have to be tartan and would have to contain 8 yards of wool cloth.Not an inch less. On a historical note, I doubt that many Scots have ever heard of box pleats and would regard anything other than knife pleats as some modern, new fangled idea that some one from Timbuktu has just thought up!Ho hum!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

You are of course quite correct, Matt. However, I suspect that NJ may well have had his tongue placed firmly in his cheek when he made that statement. Also I suspect if you asked a Scot what a real kilt was, he would reply that it would have to be tartan and would have to contain 8 yards of wool cloth.Not an inch less. On a historical note, I doubt that many Scots have ever heard of box pleats and would regard anything other than knife pleats as some modern, new fangled idea that some one from Timbuktu has just thought up!Ho hum!

Jock,

I have no doubt that what you say is true about what the average modern Scot considers a "real kilt." However, just because someone is born and raised in Scotland does not make them an expert on their own country's history. I'm afraid that all too often I have seen evidence that teh average Scot is just as ignorant of Scotland's history as the average American is ignorant of our history! So it's not just a Scottish problem. :-)

The only way to get people to be more aware of the history of the kilt is simply to point out errors where one sees them and make accurate information available.

So I would say that an tartan kilt, made from an average of eight yards of cloth and knife pleated is the most common and recognized form of kilt today, but we still must recognize that, historically, the kilt has been made from as little as three yards of cloth, can be either solid or tartan, and has been made with a variety of styles of pleating.

If more Scots would simply go to their own museums and take a close look at some of the kilts on display there, they might be more open to this fact!

[NorCalPiper]

I had 2 WW1 kilts from different regiments and they were both military box pleats, which is different than the "box pleat" we're all used to.

[Arizona Scot]

If your looking for something simular to what they wear, check out www.whatpriceglory.com they sell military weight in the blackwatch tartan.

[1oldsarge]

This website may be of interest.
"http://www.blackwatchkitshop.com/shop/index.php"

[slohairt]

Well, tongue in cheek it may have been, but both Matt and I are sponsors on this site and make box-pleated kilts (among other styles). We've heard that remark often enough (especially coming from Scots) that it isn't really amusing anymore. (If it ever was to begin with.) Many members on this forum also wear traditional box-pleated kilts.

Concerning military "box-pleated" kilts, I would definitely agree with Matt that few if any are made from 8 yards of cloth. I don't receive orders for that style often, but I've never made one with more than 7 yards. Indeed, some surplus military kilts are sized so small (26" or 28" waist) that they contain about 5 1/2 yards.

[Jock Scot]

Well, tongue in cheek it may have been, but both Matt and I are sponsors on this site and make box-pleated kilts (among other styles). We've heard that remark often enough (especially coming from Scots) that it isn't really amusing anymore. (If it ever was to begin with.) Many members on this forum also wear traditional box-pleated kilts.

Concerning military "box-pleated" kilts, I would definitely agree with Matt that few if any are made from 8 yards of cloth. I don't receive orders for that style often, but I've never made one with more than 7 yards. Indeed, some surplus military kilts are sized so small (26" or 28" waist) that they contain about 5 1/2 yards.

Alright, NJ must speak for himself,but you might have to accept what I am trying to give you is an honest assesment and I believe it is more or less right as far as Scotland is concerned. I know this is a point of view that is not helpful to your businesses and I am sorry about that, nevertheless I am only giving an honest view of how kilts are percieved over here. In your country the box pleat is known , it is not known well here,the same goes for the amount of cloth that is needed to make a kilt, by the majority of Scots who are not members of Xmarks.

[slohairt]

Alright, NJ must speak for himself,but you might have to accept what I am trying to give you is an honest assesment and I believe it is more or less right as far as Scotland is concerned. I know this is a point of view that is not helpful to your businesses and I am sorry about that, nevertheless I am only giving an honest view of how kilts are percieved over here. In your country the box pleat is known , it is not known well here,the same goes for the amount of cloth that is needed to make a kilt, by the majority of Scots who are not members of Xmarks.

Well, I can't speak for the United States, but here in Canada the situation likely mirrors that of Scotland. Remember that we are a Commonwealth Realm and do have kilted regiments and pipe bands for everything and anything. Most peoples' experience with kilts would probably have something to do with either or both of those sources. If the average Canadian even has an opinion concerning the yardage of a kilt, they will think it must contain the "whole nine yards". (Or eight yards in this case! ) So, no, the box-pleated kilt is just as much of an oddity here as over there.

It isn't detrimental to my business, as I offer five different styles of pleating. On the contrary, it is a detriment to the customer's Highland wear budget, as they could save money by ordering what is obviously a more affordable style of traditional kilt.

[Panache]

Offering an opinion here

xmarksthescot.com is probably the largest and most informative kilt forum on the Internet.

The Ladies and Gentlemen here are probably the most informed kilt wearers and buyers in the world.

To the native Scots this is a garment that they wear with pride but most likely don't spend a huge amount of time thinking about it.

The "8 yard, knife pleated (to sett) kilt" is by far and away the most common type of hand sewn kilt to be bought or rented in Scotland and the rest of the world.

Most people that own a hand sewn kilt own 1 kilt

One kilt

Uno

Un

That's it!

We are the exception here rather than the rule

Just to remind us all of this

I don't think that it is wrong for Jock Scot to offer some perception on how most Scots perceive the kilt.

On the other hand I suspect strongly because we here on XMTS have such and interest and passion about this garment that even though the majority of us are not native Scots, our grasp of the full history and guidelines for wearing the kilt is far greater than a great many born in Scotland.

Would your average Scot see a 4 yard box pleated kilt as a bit weird?

Maybe

Does it mean that it is wrong?

No

It is an older style that is coming back, at least here in the US, with a lot of help from our own Matt Newsome and our forum.

We know this, the average Scot might not.

Is this good or bad?

No it is just a difference.

The kilt came from Scotland but it has long since moved beyond her boundaries both geographically and culturally.

I for one am interested in hearing about how the average Scot regards his kilt and kit.

However I strongly suspect that I know a lot more about kilts than the average Scot.

I'm a very proud Californian yet it would be a gross misstatement for me to say I know more about the Golden State than anyone not born here.

Isn't it great that we have this place on the Internet to politely share these differences and celebrate diversity?

I think so.

Just my two cents

Cheers

Jamie :ootd: