Why no pubs in America?

[Bob C]

Tougher drunk driving laws and enforcement have made a difference, too. Lest anyone misread my intent, I am not saying that is a bad thing.

[joecool]

We have a couple of nice Irish "themed" pubs here in Kansas City. Last time I checked they were doing pretty well (Sunday is unlimited fish and chips, so you know why I go there ) Most folks there do tend to be a little bit older, but then again, the menu doesn't really seemed suited for kids...

[ForresterModern]

Mac of Rathdown hit it on the head with his prohibition comments. Before prohibition, places like Cincinnati and Milwaukee, heavily German populated, had an estimated pub/tavern for every 50-100 population. one literally one every corner in most neighborhoods. Each of these cities also had dozens of small breweries to supply these hundreds of pubs with fresh flowing brew. Prohibition put all but a few of the enterprising breweries out of business and shuttered virtually all of the old pubs/taverns. Some reopened after prohibition but 15 years is a long time to stick it out without your primary product. The business just never recovered.

There are many pubs around but they are not quite like the historic and longstanding ones in Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, etc... as most are only a few years old and have not become the center of family gatherings. In the old countries most of the patrons are regulars and neighbors and know one another by name and face. That is a lot less frequent in the US. Add the automobile based culture with mobility allowing more variety in where families and individuals eat, and we have the massive restaurant business instead of the pub/tavern style places, although they can be found if you look hard enough.

[sathor]

My wife and I both really miss Johnathon B Pub in Briarwood mall in A2, Mi. I say a map of the mall a few years back, and it wasn't listed. I really really miss that place.

[beloitpiper]

Milwaukee Wisconsin has a local pub on every corner. The town I grew up in had 800 people, and 8 bars. None made their own beer, but they had regulars who drank there on a steady schedule.

My thoughts exactly. Have any of you guys ever been to Wisconsin? Sure, they're called taverns here, but they're the American (or at least Wisconsin) response to a true British pub. Food is served, usually home-made or local recipes, and it's not uncommon to see kids at these places. However, they're never kitchy or themed--they're just the public living room.

[SteveB]

That is what a lot of the neighbourhood Mom & Pop pubs are in this neck of the woods. No specific theme but as close to an Irish, British, Scot pub as is possible on this side of the salt puddle.

[macwilkin]

For those curious about the subject of this thread, I would recommend:

Faces along the Bar: Lore and Order in the Workingman's Saloon, 1870-1920 by Madelon Powers (U. of Chicago Press, 1999)

The Saloon: Public Drinking in Chicago and Boston, 1880-1920 by Perry Duis (U. of IL Press, 1989)

I looked at both as a supplemental textbook in my American History 2 class I am teaching next semester before deciding to go with a more standard history of an immigrant neighborhood in St. Louis, The Hill.

Both titles are excellent and deal a lot with what MoR and FM have already mentioned in their posts.

Ironically, I'm enjoying a nice Boulevard Dry Stout as a type this message to celebrate turning in grades for my last class! int:

Cheers!

Todd

[Lachlan09]

There’s a few Scottish pubs I know of which could have been dismantled and taken to the States !! I think the South Bronx would have been a fitting venue for them.

Scottish working men’s pubs of old were for one thing and one thing only – hard drinking for men . As a result the bar counter was usually long and straight and there were no chairs or tables. The idea was to cram them in and pour drink down their throats and there was no intention to make them comfortable by seating them. Besides, tables and chairs took up space. Some pubs kept a ready supply of filled pint glasses on the counter ready to drink, or else a bevy (excuse pun) of barmen to keep up with demand. There was no food, not even crisps or peanuts and no soft drinks. I remember a so-called modern pub in Rose Street, Edinburgh about 1979 and I ordered a soft drink as I still didn’t feel well from my last drinking session. The barman said “If you want a soft drink, go to a café”.

I remember working-class pubs in Edinburgh and Glasgow without tables and chairs, large empty rooms with industrial linoleum floors made for mass-drinking. When I went to England on holiday in the early 1970’s my brother and me went into a lovely country pub and had this amazing creation “Chicken in a Basket”. It was light years ahead of Scotland. Food in a working-mans' pub in Scotland ? – No way ! They also had families allowed in the pub ! Not in Scotland at that time. The Scots were barbarians at that time when it came to their drinking culture and only with the 1980’s did they creak into modernity. Don’t get me wrong, in the 1970’s there were hotels with bars and posh pubs around, but “normal” pubs were basic and attitudes to drink were archaic. Hardly surprising when you consider in the 1960’s New Year first-footing in Scotland offered whisky and beer for the men, ruby port (how posh !) and advocaat for the ladies and hellish awful ginger or raspberry cordial for any kids who were allowed to stay up late. What happened in Scotland though was that many “fashionable” working-class young men in the late 1960’s/1970’s raised their sights and shunned those booze factories in favour of “posh” pubs. For instance, there were good beer "standing only" pubs like Mather’s Bar in Edinburgh, but I avoided them and made for pubs with a comfortable surrounding and tables and chairs (and even food), like the Beau Brummell, Chic Murray's or the Claret Jug (all in nicer parts of town). The padded leather chairs in the Claret Jug were so excellent and helped me relax with a Newcastle Brown ! Chat to the girls and no pressure to drink up.

During the 70’s, there was a legendary Edinburgh pub in Thistle Street called “The Oxford Bar”. It was 2 tiny rooms, the little front-room was standing room only and the back-room had ex-church pews and heavy, but shoogly cast-iron tables. The pub was owned by Willie Ross. He was an old curmudgeon and an avid ScotNat. He detested Englishmen with a vengeance and did not allow them into his pub. It was no publicity stunt. He really mass-banned them. He had various whiskies and only sold beer, not lager. He also only had pint glasses. One Christmas-time, some work-colleagues went there for a pre-dinner pint. One of our number, a rather aloof pipe-smoking professional gent, asked for a half-pint of lager !!! Willie nearly burst veins in his neck at the request. Shouting, he ordered our colleague out of the pub and it took some explaining and apologies to rescind the ban !! Willie used to keep his own hours in opening and closing and once he shut the pub and ordered everyone out as he was going to get some messages (shopping) for his wife ! Mind you he was a character – the grumpy old buzzard !!!

[Frank McGrath]

Greed and local liquor laws.

[macwilkin]

Scottish working men’s pubs of old were for one thing and one thing only – hard drinking for men . As a result the bar counter was usually long and straight and there were no chairs or tables. The idea was to cram them in and pour drink down their throats and there was no intention to make them comfortable by seating them. Besides, tables and chairs took up space. Some pubs kept a ready supply of filled pint glasses on the counter ready to drink, or else a bevy (excuse pun) of barmen to keep up with demand. There was no food, not even crisps or peanuts and no soft drinks. I remember a so-called modern pub in Rose Street, Edinburgh about 1979 and I ordered a soft drink as I still didn’t feel well from my last drinking session. The barman said “If you want a soft drink, go to a café”.

This paragraph pretty much describes many of the immigrant saloons that dotted America's major urban areas in the late 19th and early 20th century as well.

T.