Glengarry Question

[creagdhubh]

I have in the past had this discussion and that of the red pom with Robert Mackies, the last traditional bonnet makers left in Scotland, they are blissfully unaware of any such significance to the dicing, be it red/black/ or red/green/black or any other colour combination.
Just put it down to the myths that surround the wearing of the kilt

Quite right, Chris. I have heard of this myth surrounding the dicing on Highland bonnets and to me, it's simply rubbish, and not to be taken seriously. Wear whatever Highland headwear you prefer, be it a Glengarry or a Balmoral. My only suggestion is to go with Robert Mackie as your official bonnet maker.

Cheers,

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Like Todd, I have never come across any historical reference that would give specific meaning to any color dicing, or lack thereof.

If you are wearing a glengarry or balmoral as a part of a uniform (military regiment, pipe band, etc) then of course wear whatever style the uniform requires.

If you are wearing a bonnet as a part of civilian dress then by all means wear the style you like.

[SlackerDrummer]

I had always heard that pipers were often hired for the regiments, which is why they (sometimes) wear different kilts (usually Royal Stewart) and plain glengarries. While any ol' lug could play the drums, so those fellows were pulled from the regiment. I don't think there's any truth to that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

I did play in a police pipe band and they followed the Black Watch precedent of plain glengarries for pipers and red and white diced for drummers. I always thought the whole band should have had black and white diced glens, since police have black and white dicing on their hats (or is it navy and white?).

Here is what our own OCRichard wrote on the subject in a thread of the same topic on a pipe band forum some time ago:

Dicing first developed on the Scottish bonnet (what today we call the Balmoral bonnet) in the 18th century, before either shakos or Glengarries were invented.

Seems that the headband of the bonnet would have a ribbon passing through it (to adjust size). This ribbon was tied in the back (which is why all forms of Scottish headdress including the feather bonnet have ribbons in the back).

At some point in the 18th century slots appeared in the bonnet's headband, the adjusting ribbon thus passing in and out of view. When the ribbon was a contrasting colour to the headband, a sequence of squares or dices was the result.

That's the story, anyhow. Is it true?

If so, one would think that there would be a period when one-row dicing was the norm, which might then expand to two rows, then finally three.

But in looking through a large number of 18th century illustrations I see only bonnets with no dicing up through the 1750's, then in the 1770's bonnets with the normal modern three rows suddenly appear. These are worn both by civilians and military.

Shakos were not adopted until after 1800.

Glengarries were invented by an officer in the Cameron Highlanders in the 1840's, and then spread to the other Highland regiments.

Each regiment varied as to dicing:
Black Watch and Cameron Highlanders, and pipers in ALL regiments: no dicing
93rd (later Argyll & Sutherland) Highlanders: red and white dicing
Gordon Highlanders, Seaforth Highlanders: red/white/green dicing

Red/white/black dicing is a modern civilian thing.

In The Highlanders of Scotland, a series of portraits done in the late 1860's, the vast majority of the bonnets show no dicing. However one Balmoral has the normal modern three-row dicing, and one has ONE row of dicing. Interesting.

[macwilkin]

I did play in a police pipe band and they followed the Black Watch precedent of plain glengarries for pipers and red and white diced for drummers. I always thought the whole band should have had black and white diced glens, since police have black and white dicing on their hats (or is it navy and white?).

Depends on the police force. The City of London Police wear red and white dicing on their peaked caps, while other police forces in the UK use black and white. Blue and white police dicing is most commonly found in Australia and New Zealand.

Sir Percy Sillitoe, who was the Chief Constable of the City of Glasgow Police, is credited with the adoption of dicing for peaked caps in 1932. Sillitoe believed the dicing would make officers more visible in the evening. The pattern is known as "The Sillitoe Tartan", and is worn by several departments in Illinois and Pennsylvania.

T.

[EagleJCS]

While any ol' lug could play the drums, so those fellows were pulled from the regiment. I don't think there's any truth to that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

'Course it's true Kenneth! (Had ta tweak ya.)

Anyway, for the OP, as I said before, wear what you like. Just be prepared for some people to have their own opinion as to your 'right' to wear it.

[Grae]

Deledted

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A reference was made to Elizabeth II being the current representative or descendant of the House of Hanover (the German Royal line that started with George I who could not speak English) who were brought in to prevent the return of the "true" Stewart line.

Actually Her Majesty is a descendant of James VI (I of England) and his wife, Anne of Denmark. Their eldest daughter (older sister of Charles I) was the Princess Elizabeth who married Frederick V, King of Bohemia. Their daughter Sophia married Ernst August of Hanover, and it was her son, George, who was later King George I of England and Scotland (as well as being King of Hanover).

Through her mother's family (the Bowes-Lyons) Her Majesty has even closer ties to Scotland.

[OC Richard]

I had always heard that pipers were often hired for the regiments, which is why they (sometimes) wear different kilts (usually Royal Stewart) and plain glengarries

Yes indeed. In the 1670s Sir James Turner, an officer in The Scots Guards, wrote:

"With us any Captain may keep a piper in his Company and maintain him, too, for no pay is allowed him, perhaps just as much as he deserveth."

These pipers would sometimes be dressed in livery, as they would be in civilian employ.

As late as 1845 the pipers of the 93rd Highlanders were dressed in Rob Roy tartan coatees, kilts, plaids, and full hose.

But this is all before Glengarries were worn in the military.

In the 1840s the 79th Highlanders came up with a new costume for their pipers: a dark green doublet (the entire army wore coatees at this time, and this was the first time the military had used doublets, being a civilian thing at the time), a Glengarry (which was supposedly designed by an officer of the regiment, but was in fact already worn by civilians), and black waistbelt and crossbelt with silver fittings. The Cameron of Erracht kilt and long plaid were the same as worn by the regiment.

From being a civilian thing to the exclusive dress of the pipers of a single regiment to becoming standard headdress for the entire Scottish infantry, thus was the path of the Glengarry.

Anyhow the Scottish regiments weren't allowed pipers on the official establishment until 1852, when each regiment was allowed one Pipe Major and five pipers.

the Black Watch precedent of plain glengarries for pipers and red and white diced for drummers.

This is not correct. In the Black Watch and the Cameron Highlanders the entire regiment, riflemen, officers, pipers, drummers, everyone entire wore plain navy blue Glengarries. (Black Glengarries were never worn in the Army; they were always extremely dark blue.)

Red and white diced Glengarries were worn only by the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, by the entire regiment, except by the pipers. The pipers of all regiments wore plain navy blue Glengarries.

Many Police pipe bands wear "Police Dice" Glengarries, black and white diced, the dicing smaller/finer than the dicing on Army Glengarries.

In many Police pipe bands, unlike military pipe bands, the pipers wear diced Glengarries just like the drummers.

[Herr Doktor]

"Red/white/black dicing is a modern civilian thing."

No, the 48th Highlanders of Canada wear the red, white and black dicing on their Glengarry as well as on their feather bonnet. The kilt hose is woven in the same pattern as well. Since 1891.

[OC Richard]

Interesting about the 48th Highlanders. I always should add, when I post, that I'm speaking of the Scottish regiments of Scotland.

Every time I post something about Scottish uniform, somebody posts "well the South Saskatoon Highlanders wore such-and-such" or whatnot and I have to admit I know little of Dominion regiments.

I might point out that that photo is black and white, from which colours cannot be ascertained. Any clear closeup colour photos?

Anyhow, here are some photos which highlight some of the points I made above.

Here are Royal Scots Fusiliers brothers, one a piper, one not, showing the mixing of diced and undiced Glens in the same unit:



And here, a collection of Pipe Majors and Drum Majors in India. Note the Drum Major of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wearing the regiment's distinctive red & white diced Glengarry, while the Pipe Major's is plain.

Also the Drum Major of the Seaforth Highlanders is wearing that regiment's diced Glengarry while of course the Pipe Major's is plain (as are all pipers').

One can also see that the Drum Majors of the Black Watch and the Cameron Highlanders in plain Glengarries, like their entire regiments.



And as to Glengarries being seen on the heads of civilian before their adoption by the pipers of the Cameron Highlanders, here is the Chief of Clan Murray in 1822



and worn by Angus MacKay, the earliest clear image of a Glengarry I can find