Irish and Gaelic Irish? Plus other quesitons!

[O'Callaghan]

Probably the reason that lowland Scots referred to highlanders as Erse, which does mean Irish, is that The Gaels migrated there from Ireland, so they were originally Irish in a very real sense. Of course, they did mix together with other groups, but the Gaelic language and culture seems to have dominated. According to myth and legend, they came to Ireland from Spain before that, and although there's no real proof of that, it is not inconsistent with current scientific opinion. ETA: The presence of Irish Gaels in the Scottish Highlands we know from Roman historians.

The Celts in the British Isles are either Gaelic or Brythonic, and the two groups of languages are quite different. Brythonic languages would include Welsh, Cornish (in SW England) and Breton (in Northern France).

Highland Scots speak Scots Gaelic (and English, of course!) whereas in the lowlands a language called either Scots or Doric was spoken, which is related to English, as of course the culture there is not Celtic atall. Some today tend to speak something which is neither quite English nor quite Scots, and if you aren't aware of this you may mistake those Scots words that do differ from the English as being Gaelic words, but they aren't.

Everyone in Ireland (the Republic) has to learn Irish in school (the term being synonymous with Irish Gaelic). This is not the case in Northern Ireland (the British part), but there they have three official languages, two of which are dialects of Gaelic, including Ulster Scots, which is actually not a dialect of Scots, but a sort of Irish version of Scots Gaelic, although the latter is apparently hardly spoken by anyone (?). So with Scots Gaelic per se and Manx Gaelic I make that four official versions of Gaelic that exist in one country or another.

I have heard that Irish and Scots versions of Gaelic are somewhat mutually intelligible. It's hard for me to judge, knowing only a tiny smattering of Irish but no Scots Gaelic worth mentioning. I do know that word endings differ, though. Even the word for Gaelic is not the same! Irish is Gaelige and Scots Gaelic is Gaidhlig, so there is no necessity to specify any further as to which you are referring to when actually speaking the language (although I could not remember the word for Scots Gaelic and had to look it up).

[Morris at Heathfield]

The term "Irish" (or "Erse") was once used to refer to all speakers of a Gaelic language. No sarcasm was intended, as far as I know, although one may argue over the appropriateness of the term as applied to the Scottish Highlanders. During most of the High Middle Ages the Lowlanders called their own language "Inglis". Toward the end of the Middle Ages they took to calling their language "Scots" to distinguish it from the English spoken south of the border. (The other manner of distinguishing the two was by referring to the English of England as "Southron".) I believe this was when they started referring to their Highland countrymen and their language as "Irish", whereas before they had been "Scots". This change tracked the increasing importance of Scots (Inglis) as the language of towns, trade, and the Scottish court.

Regarding the place of the Gaelic/Goidelic languages in the Celtic branch of the Indo-European language family, the Wikipedia article on the subject, as it currently stands, is not bad. Rather briefly (heh), there are two major views on the grouping of the Celtic languages.

The older grouping divided the languages into "P-Celtic" and "Q-Celtic", with "Q-Celtic" comprising the Goidelic and Celtiberian languages, and "P-Celtic" comprising the Brythonic and Gaulish languages. The major difference between the two groups is how they handle the proto-Celtic *kʷ sound. For example, proto-Celtic *kʷenno- became cenn in Old Irish (a Q-Celtic language) and pen in Welsh (a P-Celtic language).

The more recent grouping divides the languages into Continental and Insular Celtic groups, with the Goidelic and Brythonic languages comprising the Insular group, and the Celtiberian and Gaulish languages comprising the Continental group. In this grouping the importance of the *kʷ to p and related sound changes are given less importance than certain features which are shared by those Celtic languages spoken on the British Isles.

Either way it happened, there ended up being four important historical sub-groups of the Celtic language branch: Gaulish, Celtiberian, Brythonic, and Goidelic. All modern Celtic languages are either in the Brythonic or the Goidelic sub-group.

The Gaulish languages include Gaulish, spoken over a somewhat larger region than what is modern France; Lepontic, spoken in parts of what is now Switzerland, Austria, Germany, and northern Italy; Noric, spoken in parts of what is now Austria and Slovenia; and Galatian, spoken in what is now central Turkey.

The Celtiberian languages include Celtiberian, spoken in what is now northeastern Spain; and Gallaecian, or Gallaic, spoken in what is now northwestern Spain. Lusitanian, spoken in what is now northern Portugal, is believed by some to be a Celtic language and by others to be a more distantly-related Indo-European language.

The Brythonic languages include Welsh; Cumbric, spoken in what is now northern England and Southern Scotland; Cornish, spoken in Cornwall; and Breton, spoken in Brittany, in northwestern France. Note that the Bretons came from Great Britain and, at the time they arrived in France, Gaulish was no longer spoken, the common language being Vulgar Latin. Also note that Welsh, Cumbric, Cornish, and Breton all descend from Brythonic, or British, which was once spoken over all of Great Britain south of the Firth of Forth. Pictish, spoken in what is now Scotland north of the Firth of Forth, is believed by some to be a Brythonic language and by others to be its own Celtic sub-group. Some scholars have hypothesized that Pictish was not a Celtic language, or even not an Indo-European language, but those views are not current. However, Pictish does seem to have picked up some non-Indo-European influences.

The Goidelic languages include Irish, formerly spoken over all of Ireland; Scottish Gaelic, at one time (ca. AD 1000) spoken over all but the southeastern corner of Scotland; and Manx, spoken on the Isle of Man.

Of the above languages, the only that have survived down to the present are Welsh, Breton, Irish, and Scottish Gaelic. Cornish and Manx became extinct or near-extinct, and only survive now due to language revival efforts. The other four Celtic languages are all endangered to some degree.

[Dale Seago]

The more recent grouping divides the languages into Continental and Insular Celtic groups, with the Goidelic and Brythonic languages comprising the Insular group, and the Celtiberian and Gaulish languages comprising the Continental group. In this grouping the importance of the *kʷ to p and related sound changes are given less importance than certain features which are shared by those Celtic languages spoken on the British Isles.

That may make sense more than just linguistically. I haven't read the whole thing yet and haven't looked at it for weeks, but I seem to recall this book mentioning that there also is no genetic linkage between the British Celts and the Gauls. . .though there is between Ireland and Spain.

[marvelredneck]

This is not the case in Northern Ireland (the British part), but there they have three official languages, two of which are dialects of Gaelic, including Ulster Scots, which is actually not a dialect of Scots, but a sort of Irish version of Scots Gaelic, although the latter is apparently hardly spoken by anyone (?). So with Scots Gaelic per se and Manx Gaelic I make that four official versions of Gaelic that exist in one country or another.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you there, Ulster Scots is a dialect of Lowland Scots, but has been influenced by Irish Gaelic and Middle English.
And not to argue too much, but when you get down to talking about the kinds of Gaelic spoken in Ulster, and not just Irish Gaelic, Scottish and Manx, you're talking about dialects, and not different kinds of Gaelic, as they are just Scots or Irish Gaelic with other influences.

[Seanmadra]

and......then there are three dialects of Irish - Ulster, Connacht, and Munster. Many similar words and many different.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

In Ireland Gaelic is commonly referred to as "Irish"-- one learns Irish in school, and one may describe oneself as an Irish speaker. Marvelredneck is correct when he points out that there are numerous dialects of spoken Irish in Ireland; probably the most common would be the (much hated by Gael Linn) Dublin accented Irish spoken by the majority of school kids. I found that if one spoke Donnegal Irish it was fairly easy to understand those Gaelic speakers from the West of Scotland.

The major difference between written Irish and Scots Gaelic is the spelling, both languages having been re-cast by academics in the 19th and 20th century to make use of the modern Latin alphabet. If you really wish to read Irish or Gaelic texts in their original form (as opposed to having been translated into "modern" Irish/Gaelic) then you'll have to learn the old alphabet and its various accent marks as well.

The actual number of Irish/Gaelic speakers is a matter of much heated debate. Theoretically all children in Ireland lean Irish for the first 12 years of school. In reality, only about 12% of the population could truly be said to be Irish speakers-- the remaining 88% may have a few handy phrases in Irish, but consider English to be their primary language. In Scotland the actual number of Gaelic speakers is much lower, most estimates place it at about 3%- 5% of the population. This is not terribly surprising given that Gaelic was always a minority language, with English and Scots being the language of the vast majority of the people.

[tripleblessed]

Every gaelic language came from Irish, the same as Irish Gaelic. The other two surviving forms are Scots Gaelic and Manx.

Its sort of like the Romance languages, based on latin and you can learn the other languages with mastering one of them.

In the interest of precision in the languaging, I think it is the other way round. Every Irish language came from Gaelic. The Gaels came to what we now call Ireland to live. They were one of many Celtic tribes that spread through the Middle East and Europe pushed by population pressures. This particular tribe ended up on this particular island which later began to be called Ireland, and as the people spread into what we now call the Hebrides and Scotland, they were widely referred to as Irish. Observers from the continent referred to them as such, IFIRC, through the 17th into the 18th century, as did the lowland Scots, noted above. As always, I am working mostly out of my head here, not having the extensive libraries of other members. (Did he say he's out of his head? I may well be, but I think I'm correct.)

So, as Gaels, their language was Gaelic before they arrived on the Emerald Isle, only later did it evolve into Irish, which is referenced by the word "Erse" to describe what was spoken in the Highlands. Irish and Gaelic are frequently interchanged, but Gaelic was the predecessor term.

If I'm incorrect, it's faulty recall, not teacher failure, and I'm sure someone will be happy to inform me, and I will be happy to learn.

P.S. I started on this after post 10, and I'm 17. You guys type way faster.

[slohairt]

Well, yes and no. Scottish Gaelic and Manx are really direct descendants of Old Irish, not some 'proto-Gaelic language'.

As MoR pointed out, Irish is indeed referred to as 'Irish' when speaking English. In Irish, it is called Gaeilge (i.e. Gaelic) not Éireannach (i.e. Irish).

The same is true for the others. Scottish Gaelic-speakers call their language Gàidhlig (Gaelic) and Manx-speakers call their 'Gaelg' or 'Gailck'.

[beloitpiper]

I just want to point out that the word "Erse" is a very antiquated word and, in some circumstances, can be a derogatory term for Irish-speakers or the Irish as a whole.

[slohairt]

I just want to point out that the word "Erse" is a very antiquated word and, in some circumstances, can be a derogatory term for Irish-speakers or the Irish as a whole.

Well, I'm not offended by it! Feel free to refer to me as an Erse at any time! I am reclaiming the word for us. Next to start on teague, paddy, mick, bogside culchee...