rethinking "traditional" dress and the Hire impact

[Jock Scot]

It must be noted that it is necessary for the Royal Family (and, to a lesser extent, the general aristocracy) to appear "old fashioned" in public to underline descent from a ancient royal past. Without public recognition of that, the right to be head of state is on shaky ground. (I think Meghan M. finds this a very difficult concept as do many of her compatriots.) Thus, HRH must wear a pocket watch strung across his waistcoat as a reflection of a past era even though he is also wearing a modern wrist watch but this affectation has nothing to do with Highland dress.

Alan

I must admit that I had not noticed that HRH wears a wristwatch and a pocket watch at the same time, something that I personally think is best avoided. A faux pas? Hummmm , probably not. Unnecessary? Probably. Personal flair? Possibly. Did he just forget to take the wristwatch off? He could well have done, I have! Is there a pocket watch on the end of the chain? I have no idea. A chain by itself does add positively to the look though and personally, I like having my pocket watch along for the ride when appropriate.

An after thought.

I do know that The Royals are fanatical about time and rightly so. So perhaps two time pieces assist in keeping them on Schedule? Bad form to be late. To be fair, they rarely are and I wish more people were as keen with their time keeping!

[OC Richard]

A historian can only be guided by the sources that are available.

I study The Highlanders Of Scotland and vintage catalogues and old photos and old paintings because what else is there to study?

I was looking over another: vintage Pathe films of Highland Games. There are glimpses of men in Highland Dress here and there. Mostly the cameras focus on Highland dancers and pipers, not super helpful if the subject is ordinary mens Highland Dress.

So far everything seen fits with the things seen in still photos and catalogues.

In any case there are things I would like to be able to trace back to when they first appear, mentioned above

-the Sheriffmur.

-black Day sporrans, particularly those with Evening Dress tassels, the so-called semi-dress sporrans.

-white hose.

I've not been able to find these before the rise of the Kilt Hire Industry.

[Jock Scot]

If it helps any, to my certain knowledge black leather sporrans were about pre 1940. My Grandfather had a crocodile skin, from a croc that he had shot whilst "out East" tanned black and had a brief case, wallet, cartridge bag and a day sporran made from it. I still see them all about occasionally amongst the family.

[Shinenotburn]

I have found an illustration dated from 1945 of a gentleman in a Sheriffmuir outfit. So it would seem they were out in the market at that time.
The artist name was William Semple and the illustration is on page 111 of the book entitled The Scottish Tartans. I'm pretty sure these illustrations were done in the 30's as the book I have is the second revision and it is dated 1945. Most all the background people in these illustrations as well as the style used to render them would indicate a 1930's + commercial illustration project. JMO.




As for the white hose ... I played in three bands in the sixties. The first wore spats and hosetops, the next one wore lovat green hose and the third switched from full dress, military, to Prince Charlies and full tartan hose with buckled shoes. A new band I joined in 1970, again had Prince Charlies and this time cable knit white hose. We were told that tartan hose were becoming too expensive at the time. I do not believe there were too many bands that went on the competition field in Ontario,in those days, wearing anything else, except for maybe full dress. Seems it was that way for at least three or four years.

[Jock Scot]

I have found an illustration dated from 1945 of a gentleman in a Sheriffmuir outfit. So it would seem they were out in the market at that time.
The artist name was William Semple and the illustration is on page 111 of the book entitled The Scottish Tartans. I'm pretty sure these illustrations were done in the 30's as the book I have is the second revision and it is dated 1945. Most all the background people in these illustrations as well as the style used to render them would indicate a 1930's + commercial illustration project. JMO.




As for the white hose ... I played in three bands in the sixties. The first wore spats and hosetops, the next one wore lovat green hose and the third switched from full dress, military, to Prince Charlies and full tartan hose with buckled shoes. A new band I joined in 1970, again had Prince Charlies and this time cable knit white hose. We were told that tartan hose were becoming too expensive at the time. I do not believe there were too many bands that went on the competition field in Ontario,in those days, wearing anything else, except for maybe full dress. Seems it was that way for at least three or four years.

With the greatest of respect and without, I hope, "dropping a shark in the pool", I really don't think discussing pipe band attire in a Traditional Highland CIVILIAN Dress is applicable or helpful here. Pipe band attire, even civilian pipe band attire, is another matter altogether. Sorry.

[Shinenotburn]

No offence taken Jock.
I simply thought that at least over here, they were a great influence to the general kilt wearing public. Especially when something new came on the scene like white hose or fancy chains on your sporrans.

[Jock Scot]

No offence taken Jock.
I simply thought that at least over here, they were a great influence to the general kilt wearing public. Especially when something new came on the scene like white hose or fancy chains on your sporrans.

This is a perfect demonstration of different perceptions and trends, in very general terms, from one side of the Atlantic to the other. If you want another couple of examples of this , go to a couple of threads of mine posted here quite a while ago now; Food for Thought and Food for Thought Two(F4T2)....... Both are on Page 193 General Kilt Talk...... There are many criticisms about these fun surveys that are undeniable, but in a very amateurish way they do illustrate well, not only with the answers to the questions, but also the following posts, the differences of perceptions between one side of the Atlantic and the other.

Over my time on this website, I have often wondered how relevant the Traditional Highland Scots input, from several contributors from this side of the pond, is on this website. Let me say quite clearly though that is not a criticism of the website in any way, but just a matter of the way it is in life. However, it does help us to understand where we are all coming from and where the differences of perception arise and even why they arise.

[Allan Thomson]

I must admit that I had not noticed that HRH wears a wristwatch and a pocket watch at the same time, something that I personally think is best avoided. A faux pas? Hummmm , probably not. Unnecessary? Probably. Personal flair? Possibly. Did he just forget to take the wristwatch off? He could well have done, I have! Is there a pocket watch on the end of the chain? I have no idea. A chain by itself does add positively to the look though and personally, I like having my pocket watch along for the ride when appropriate.

An after thought.

I do know that The Royals are fanatical about time and rightly so. So perhaps two time pieces assist in keeping them on Schedule? Bad form to be late. To be fair, they rarely are and I wish more people were as keen with their time keeping!

I wear a pocket watch with my kilt as Ithink it goes well with it. I also have a smart watch linked to my phone...so I'll often wear both together when kilted...

[Highland Logan]

This is a perfect demonstration of different perceptions and trends, in very general terms, from one side of the Atlantic to the other. If you want another couple of examples of this , go to a couple of threads of mine posted here quite a while ago now; Food for Thought and Food for Thought Two(F4T2)....... Both are on Page 193 General Kilt Talk...... There are many criticisms about these fun surveys that are undeniable, but in a very amateurish way they do illustrate well, not only with the answers to the questions, but also the following posts, the differences of perceptions between one side of the Atlantic and the other.

Over my time on this website, I have often wondered how relevant the Traditional Highland Scots input, from several contributors from this side of the pond, is on this website. Let me say quite clearly though that is not a criticism of the website in any way, but just a matter of the way it is in life. However, it does help us to understand where we are all coming from and where the differences of perception arise and even why they arise.

This is also a perfect demonstration of regarding the membership as a collective based on which side of the Atlantic they hail from. I prefer to treat individuals with their agency intact, regardless of origin. During my time on this forum, I have seen individuals from both sides of the Atlantic whom have displayed a natural ability to wear the Highland dress, with ease and poise as though it were a second skin. They have been a vast storehouse of knowledge, and in most cases have been above reproach.

I have also seen those from both sides lack the ability to get it quite right, but have a air of confidence that proclaims otherwise.

Frankly I don't care where you live, or the country currently on your passport. Either you can wear the dress correctly, or not. I think we could dispatch a lot of issues here, or in the real world, if we dealt with individuals, individuality.

Frank

[OC Richard]

The artist name was William Semple and the illustration is on page 111 of the book entitled The Scottish Tartans. I'm pretty sure these illustrations were done in the 30's as the book I have is the second revision and it is dated 1945. Most all the background people in these illustrations as well as the style used to render them would indicate a 1930's + commercial illustration project. JMO.

Thanks for that! It would be the earliest illustration of the Sheriffmuir I've seen. They are not sold in any catalogues I have, from a half-dozen different firms, from the 20s up through the 70s.

Like the other new 20th century Evening jackets (the Prince Charlie, the Montrose, the Kenmore) they probably began as the offering of a single tailor, then later spread in popularity. Only with the Kenmore have I been able to find out which tailor (Andersons).

The Sheriffmuir is nothing more than the traditional Doublet with the collar of the Montrose jacket, so it would be easy enough to create that hybrid, as everyone was making both the Doublet and the Montrose from the 1920s on.

I will have to look into those books more. It was in print from around WWI and went through endless revisions, most of them not dated. I have a copy printed between 1916 and 1921 on internal evidence (the then-current clan chiefs listed) but the illustrations are completely different.

BTW your photo there is small but the woman in the chair seems to have a 1940s hairdo. Who would know is a friend of mine, she's an expert at vintage styles, and since few of my old Highland Dress catalogues have dates I show them to her and she'll say "oh, that one's from the early 1920s. That one's from the late 1930s" and so on. If they have illustrations of women she can nail the dates.