Looks like Blackwatch?

[macwilkin]

He called his tartan by his regimental number, and that was that! Many of our traditions about clan tartans began life with the uniform tartans of the regiments, and the close associations between regiments and certain clans...

The regimental number went out with the Cardwell reforms of the British Army in 1881, but that didn't stop a lot of the old soldier's from using them.

Cardwell's reforms amalgamated a number of regiments, and caused mutch bitterness; For example, the 75th Foot became the 1st Battalion, the Gordon Highlanders, which was not a popular decision:

Epitaph on the 75th, 30 June 1881

Here lies the poor old seventy-fifth,
but under God's protection,
They'll rise again in kilt and hose,
a glorious resurrection!
For by the transformation power
Of Parliamentary laws,
We go to bed the Seventy-Fifth,
and arise the Ninety-Twas!

from Mr. Kipling's Army by Byron Farwell.

[Cawdorian]

I like to think that the Black Watch and those other clans copied from the Lamont tartan

I'm going to have to agree with George, after all the Lamonts are one of the oldest documented clans. So they must have been the first.

[Cawdorian]

Am I missing something somewhere is this thread? It is my understanding that the 93rd Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wore the tartan that is also known as the Campbell of Cawdor/District of Argyll tartan.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

If I got the facts confused you will have to forgive me as this is my 999th post and I am about to become elderly.

[Mike S]

Quoting from a history of the regiment, published by the
Regimental Museum Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders:

"The 93rd also wore kilts of the same tartan, which in official records is also sometimes referred to as the Sutherland tartan".

Later in the same publication:
"The "Sutherland" tartan, as worn by The 93rd Sutherland, and later Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, is considered to be "Government" but in a lighter shade".

In another published article by the same museum:

"The 93rd wore the same tartan as the 91st. Lochnell called it 'the Campbell Tartan', the 93rd referred to theirs as the 'Sutherland Tartan'. It is exactly similar to that worn by the Regiment today".

Since the Regiment was raised at the behest of Elizabeth, Countess of Sutherland, was assembled initially by her cousin Major-General William Wemyss of Wemyss, and staffed early on primarily with Sutherlands, MacKays, and Wemyss' from County Sutherland and surrounding counties, I definitely think the Sutherland name should stick to the tartan worn as well.

It goes without saying that the 93rd "Sutherland" regiment kept the 93rd regimental number, even after amalgamation with the 91st Argyll, who lost theirs in the process. The glorious battle history of the pre amalgamation 93rd Sutherland Highlanders-"The Thin Red Line", especially after their service at Lucknow and the Crimea, had more than a bit to do with this I'm sure.

During the 1857 Indian Mutiny the 93rd earned Seven Victoria Crosses during the reliefs of Lucknow, 6 of which were won in one day. The Regiment was a favourite of Queen Victoria's.

[Wemysshire]

As my grandmother was a Sutherland, this was a very interesting and informative topic. Just wanted to comment that I didn't realize that there were any Wemyss in County Sutherland. The Wemyss are mostly associated historically with Fife and Central Scotland and Clan McDuff before that.

The Sutherlands and Wemyss are linked several ways, I think, so you are probably right. I have read that Wemyss Castle in Fife was decorated in the Sutherland tartan.

_________________
Steve Weems

[1MUNK3]

I must pipe in and correct something Cajunscot wrote when this thread first began in 2007 in regards to the 79th / Cameron of Erracht / The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders Tartan being based off the 42nd Government Black Watch Tartan. Not true ! In fact, here it goes :
The 79th (Cameron of Erracht) Tartan was unique among Scottish Regiments owing to the fact that it was not derived from the 42nd Government (Black Watch) Tartan. It was created by taking the MacDonald sett, omitting three red lines and imposing the yellow line of Clan Cameron.
The 79th Tartan was a source of jealousy guarded pride to the Cameron Highlanders. In 1881, when the linking of battalions was taking place, the War Office considered linking the 42nd Royal Highlanders with the 79th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. The problem was that both Regiments would have to wear the same Tartan and obviously the 42nd had precedence. The Camerons were asked by telegram, "Will your Regiment adopt the Tartan of the 42nd Regiment ?" Risking disbandment or amalagamation, the curt reply in the negative left the War Office in no doubt that no one interferes with the 79th Tartan.
The Tartan worn by the 79th Regiment was known as the Cameron of Erracht. It was designed by Sir Allan Cameron's mother upon his request. She was the daughter of Ranald MacDonnell of Keppoch. She based the design on a mixing of the MacDonnell of Keppoch and Cameron Tartans using local Lochaber dyes.
Another source states: When the Regiment was raised by Sir Allan Cameron of Erracht, his mother designed the Tartan. It happened that Sir Allan's mother was a MacDonald of Keppoch and she wished to respect the sentiments of both Clans, she blended the Tartans of the MacDonalds with that of the Camerons.
And lastly from the Scottish Tartans Authority :
Worn by the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (79th). When asked if the Regiment would adopt the Tartan of the 42nd Black Watch, the reply was an emphatic "NO!" and the Cameron of Erracht Tartan in fact, owes it's origins to the MacDonald Tartan.
Sorry if this was boring to some. I'm a Representative for Clan Cameron in my region and part of my duty is to preserve and promote our Clans proud History. This is something I take seriously. Now that has been taken care of, on with the kilts .
Yours Aye,
Sean

[macwilkin]

I must pipe in and correct something Cajunscot wrote when this thread first began in 2007 in regards to the 79th / Cameron of Erracht / The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders Tartan being based off the 42nd Government Black Watch Tartan. Not true ! In fact, here it goes :
The 79th (Cameron of Erracht) Tartan was unique among Scottish Regiments owing to the fact that it was not derived from the 42nd Government (Black Watch) Tartan. It was created by taking the MacDonald sett, omitting three red lines and imposing the yellow line of Clan Cameron.
The 79th Tartan was a source of jealousy guarded pride to the Cameron Highlanders. In 1881, when the linking of battalions was taking place, the War Office considered linking the 42nd Royal Highlanders with the 79th Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. The problem was that both Regiments would have to wear the same Tartan and obviously the 42nd had precedence. The Camerons were asked by telegram, "Will your Regiment adopt the Tartan of the 42nd Regiment ?" Risking disbandment or amalagamation, the curt reply in the negative left the War Office in no doubt that no one interferes with the 79th Tartan.
The Tartan worn by the 79th Regiment was known as the Cameron of Erracht. It was designed by Sir Allan Cameron's mother upon his request. She was the daughter of Ranald MacDonnell of Keppoch. She based the design on a mixing of the MacDonnell of Keppoch and Cameron Tartans using local Lochaber dyes.
Another source states: When the Regiment was raised by Sir Allan Cameron of Erracht, his mother designed the Tartan. It happened that Sir Allan's mother was a MacDonald of Keppoch and she wished to respect the sentiments of both Clans, she blended the Tartans of the MacDonalds with that of the Camerons.
And lastly from the Scottish Tartans Authority :
Worn by the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (79th). When asked if the Regiment would adopt the Tartan of the 42nd Black Watch, the reply was an emphatic "NO!" and the Cameron of Erracht Tartan in fact, owes it's origins to the MacDonald Tartan.
Sorry if this was boring to some. I'm a Representative for Clan Cameron in my region and part of my duty is to preserve and promote our Clans proud History. This is something I take seriously. Now that has been taken care of, on with the kilts .
Yours Aye,
Sean

Sean,

Please go back and the read my post; I was refering to the concept of military tartans being the origin of clan tartans -- nowhere did I ever claim that the Cameron of Erracht tartan is based upon the Government Sett -- I am very much aware of the origins of the Cameron of Erracht tartan!

The clan tartans owe much to the regimental tartans; if you don't believe me, take a look at where the Camerons, Gordons and Mackenzies all got their tartans.

See -- no claim that C of E is based on the Government sett -- only that the clan tartan system has its origins in the military tartans, as the aforementioned clans have all adopted regimental tartans as their own because of association.

Todd

[The Wizard of BC]

I asked this question about two months ago but here it is again.

Is there a list of the current Tartans that are derived from the Black Watch Tartan?

Such as Black Watch with a White over-check. or Black Watch with one white over-check in each full Sett and alternating red over-check.

If my head gets to hurting when thinking about all this I simply turn the fabric 90 degrees and voila, the generic and public Blackwatch Tartan. Simple.

And of course we all know that all Tartans are actually derived from the only true Clan Tartan today. This Tartan is used by the only real and faithful Clan in existence today that holds to the original concept of Clan.

Clan X Marks!

[1MUNK3]

Hello Todd / CajunScot,
I'm sorry that you seemed to take offense. That was not the intent here. Has you clearly wrote " The Clan Tartans owe much to the Regimental Tartans, if you don't believe me take a look at where the Camerons, ........"
Now based upon the fact that the original content was in regards to the 42nd Government sett, I guess somehow I stupidly and unintentionally thought you were referring to that, knowing that the other clans mentioned do have a base foundation on the Black Watch Tartan. With that being the foundation of response to thread, the main Cameron Tartan, sixteen green squares upon a red background sett with a bright yellow border does differ. If one Tartan had to be singled out for general use by Camerons , that would be the main Tartan. This being taken from the Vestiarium of Scoticum in 1834, which was accepted by the then Lochiel, Chief of Clan Cameron. It very much resembles an old red and green square sett in the West Highland Museum in Fort William.
With that being said, yes I do realize the date 1834. The C of E was created in 1793. So here is this tidbit :
When Sir Allan Cameron of Erracht (1750-1828) founded the 79th Regiment, the Cameron Highlanders, he desired a new Tartan for it and wrote at the time that the main Tartan before the Ban (1747-82) worn in Lochaber was red in colour. It might be presumed from this that many of the wearers could be identified as Lochaber men (Clan Cameron territory) and most likely Camerons. The Erracht Tartan avoided using the red background as a basis due to the fact that it clashed with the military tunics of the time (one must not clash now ). Regardless of the C of E Tartans origins, it is often used as a day or "hunting" Tartan because of it's "serviceable" colours. This Tartan was not created as tribal, Clan clothing specifically for the Erracht Camerons
Again none of this is meant to get ones kilt in a twist. So please DON'T take offense. Yes, tis true there are many Tartans based off the Black Watch Tartan. We owe so much to these proud Regiments not only for their service but to keeping the Highland garb alive and well in a very dark time where it almost became extinct. If it were not for them we wouldn't be sitting in our kilts in front of our computer screens discussing these topics on a board all about wonderful KILTS ! I hope all is well, Cheers and Up Tha Scots int:! I think this might be another one of those times where the written word tends to confuse us more than having a conversation face to face.
Yours Aye,
Sean

[Jock Scot]

1MUNK3. I rather think that the MacDonalds of GlenGarry and the MacDonells of Keppoch,to name but two clans, will dispute your claim that the district of Lochaber is all Clan Cameron territory! LOL