County Cork tartans and Arsenal tartan

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Two points re: Irish "crest" tartans:
(1) they aren't crests, they are the coats of arms of the various counties and as such are the copyright property of the Irish government, the copyright being vested in each local (county) authority. Not that the government does anything to enforce that copyright.
(2) not all of the arms are correct; certainly the arms of Dublin are not those depicted.
(3) while the city of Cork has arms, the county does not.

[thanmuwa]

Two points re: Irish "crest" tartans:
(1) they aren't crests, they are the coats of arms of the various counties and as such are the copyright property of the Irish government, the copyright being vested in each local (county) authority. Not that the government does anything to enforce that copyright.
(2) not all of the arms are correct; certainly the arms of Dublin are not those depicted.
(3) while the city of Cork has arms, the county does not.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

Regarding your 2 (or 3?) points:
1) Are the coats-of-arms of the 6 counties in the North copyright of the Irish government? I knew that the lighthouses in Northern Ireland belonged to the Southern Government, but I didn't know that one. Cool and thanks for the info.
2) Agree wholeheartedly.
3) That may be technically true, but the county does use the city's coat of arms, you see it on every county team's crest.

On the plus side, the vast vast majority of Irish people will call it Derry (like on your site Rocky) rather than Londonderry as on the House of Edgar one. Much easier on the eye, thank you.

[RockyR]

SMALL HIJACK

On the plus side, the vast vast majority of Irish people will call it Derry (like on your site Rocky) rather than Londonderry as on the House of Edgar one. Much easier on the eye, thank you.

I found it very fascinating that when we were in Ireland this past January, STREET SIGNS to Londonderry had the "London" blacked out. This was true for 75% of the signs or more.

Without trying to be "political", we have followed their lead and list the tartan as Derry. Glad someone caught that and can appreciate it.

AND NOW, Back to your normally scheduled discussion...

[O'Callaghan]

SMALL HIJACK



I found it very fascinating that when we were in Ireland this past January, STREET SIGNS to Londonderry had the "London" blacked out. This was true for 75% of the signs or more.

Without trying to be "political", we have followed their lead and list the tartan as Derry. Glad someone caught that and can appreciate it.

AND NOW, Back to your normally scheduled discussion...

It's a sectarian matter whether to say Derry or Londonderry, but Derry City is right on the border and once seceded from the North. I think that the IRA were hoping that Derry (as the locals call it) could become part of the Republic, but the Republic didn't want to risk starting a war, and eventually it was re-taken by British troops.

Derry City was really left on the wrong side of the border when Ireland was partitioned, which is a great shame, but it was the county seat of County Londonderry, which was and is mostly Unionist. The irony of this is that the North later abolished counties.

This leads me on to the question of who owns the copyright to the coats of arms of the six counties of the North. I should think that no-one does, as they no longer exist. The Republic, OTOH, has created three additional counties since partition, which AFAIK were all formerly part of Dublin.

I hope that this isn't too political, more like merely history. I am descended from people who came from the South coast of Ireland in County Cork, as far from the border as you could get.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This leads me on to the question of who owns the copyright to the coats of arms of the six counties of the North. I should think that no-one does, as they no longer exist. The Republic, OTOH, has created three additional counties since partition, which AFAIK were all formerly part of Dublin.

All of the county arms in the whole of Ireland were granted by the Office of Arms at Dublin Castle. In 1943 Both governments agreed that the transfer of the Office of Arms would formally take place on 1 April of that year. Furthermore, the office (now under the administration of the Irish Government) would "continue to discharge, under the Irish administration, the functions to which it hitherto carried out in relation to the grant of arms, tracing of genealogies, etc."

And indeed this is precisely what happened. All of the work then in progress was transferred to the Chief Herald of Ireland who continued the process begun by his predecesor at Dublin Castle, the Ulster King of Arms.

The first grant to a private individual made by the State was to a Colonel McCaffery in the United States of America. The first grant made to a public body (other than to the Irish Government) was to Ulster Bus in Belfast.

Thus, as is clear from the terms sited above, the Chief Herald of Ireland has control and authority over the arms of the six counties in the Ulster Province of the United Kingdom. While the administrative jargon of local government has changed in the Ulster Province, the counties have, indeed continued in their existence.

As far as the new administrative districts recently created in the Republic of Ireland are concerned, all of them have arms granted by the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland. I have no idea why they are termed counties, unless it had something to do with utilizing existing legislation regarding government funding of counties, as opposed to having to create new legislation to fund "cantons", or some other such term.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

Regarding your 2 (or 3?) points:
1) Are the coats-of-arms of the 6 counties in the North copyright of the Irish government? I knew that the lighthouses in Northern Ireland belonged to the Southern Government, but I didn't know that one. Cool and thanks for the info.
2) Agree wholeheartedly.
3) That may be technically true, but the county does use the city's coat of arms, you see it on every county team's crest.

On the plus side, the vast vast majority of Irish people will call it Derry (like on your site Rocky) rather than Londonderry as on the House of Edgar one. Much easier on the eye, thank you.

Er, sorry, but the Cork County Council adopted a seal (in 1899) and that's what it uses. For the record the seal incorporates the arms of the City of Cork surrounded by the arms of the cities of: Youghal; Castlemartyr; Bandon; Midelton; Kinsale; and Charleville.

As far as "county teams" using the arms of the City of Cork... well, that's sports for you! No one ever said they knew anything about heraldry. UP THE DUBS!!!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Under brehon law multi-coloured clothing was restricted to the chiefly class, which is probably why tartan never really caught on in pre-1600 Ireland in the same way as it did in Scotland. Thus, even though the kilt never figured in Irish history, if you are going to wear one a solid colour would at least be giving a nod to classical Irish traditions.

[O'Callaghan]

Under brehon law multi-coloured clothing was restricted to the chiefly class, which is probably why tartan never really caught on in pre-1600 Ireland in the same way as it did in Scotland. Thus, even though the kilt never figured in Irish history, if you are going to wear one a solid colour would at least be giving a nod to classical Irish traditions.

The Brehon law would also have limited red to chiefs or minor kings, which is another reason not to get a red kilt.

It depends what you mean by history. Kilts were worn in Ireland to some extent during the celtic revival in the late 19th and early 20th century, albeit mostly by the intellectuals of the Gaelic League and by pipers and dancers. Pipers still wear them (and bagpipes in Ireland are old enough to have been banned in the 14th century, should you choose to go there). You can choose to view the celtic revival as bogus, but solid coloured Irish kilts originated in that period, not in your suggestion on this forum today!

I keep editting this post, but I will stop! I just wanted to add that you might have argued in 1890 that there are no kilts in Irish history, had you been around, but that no longer holds water because that period itself is now part of history.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Boy, are you able to read into my posts a lot more than is written on the page! I was taking about brehon law limiting the number of colours that could be worn by individuals in the various strata of classical Irish society. That was all. No comment about the Gaelic League, Oscar Wilde, the price of a pint, OR May 23rd, 1892 the date that members of the Gaelic League first got the loony idea to wear a green kilt. (Just kidding about that last bit.)

NO WHERE did I suggest when kilts were first worn in Ireland by the Irish as an expression of national identity.

WHAT I DID SAY was that wearing a solid colour was at least in keeping with the traditions of brehon law. That was it. End of message.

[O'Callaghan]

Boy, are you able to read into my posts a lot more than is written on the page! I was taking about brehon law limiting the number of colours that could be worn by individuals in the various strata of classical Irish society. That was all. No comment about the Gaelic League, Oscar Wilde, the price of a pint, OR May 23rd, 1892 the date that members of the Gaelic League first got the loony idea to wear a green kilt. (Just kidding about that last bit.)

NO WHERE did I suggest when kilts were first worn in Ireland by the Irish as an expression of national identity.

WHAT I DID SAY was that wearing a solid colour was at least in keeping with the traditions of brehon law. That was it. End of message.

Then it wasn't you who said "even though the kilt never figured in Irish history"?