County Cork tartans and Arsenal tartan

[O'Callaghan]

SMALL HIJACK



I found it very fascinating that when we were in Ireland this past January, STREET SIGNS to Londonderry had the "London" blacked out. This was true for 75% of the signs or more.

Without trying to be "political", we have followed their lead and list the tartan as Derry. Glad someone caught that and can appreciate it.

AND NOW, Back to your normally scheduled discussion...

It's a sectarian matter whether to say Derry or Londonderry, but Derry City is right on the border and once seceded from the North. I think that the IRA were hoping that Derry (as the locals call it) could become part of the Republic, but the Republic didn't want to risk starting a war, and eventually it was re-taken by British troops.

Derry City was really left on the wrong side of the border when Ireland was partitioned, which is a great shame, but it was the county seat of County Londonderry, which was and is mostly Unionist. The irony of this is that the North later abolished counties.

This leads me on to the question of who owns the copyright to the coats of arms of the six counties of the North. I should think that no-one does, as they no longer exist. The Republic, OTOH, has created three additional counties since partition, which AFAIK were all formerly part of Dublin.

I hope that this isn't too political, more like merely history. I am descended from people who came from the South coast of Ireland in County Cork, as far from the border as you could get.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This leads me on to the question of who owns the copyright to the coats of arms of the six counties of the North. I should think that no-one does, as they no longer exist. The Republic, OTOH, has created three additional counties since partition, which AFAIK were all formerly part of Dublin.

All of the county arms in the whole of Ireland were granted by the Office of Arms at Dublin Castle. In 1943 Both governments agreed that the transfer of the Office of Arms would formally take place on 1 April of that year. Furthermore, the office (now under the administration of the Irish Government) would "continue to discharge, under the Irish administration, the functions to which it hitherto carried out in relation to the grant of arms, tracing of genealogies, etc."

And indeed this is precisely what happened. All of the work then in progress was transferred to the Chief Herald of Ireland who continued the process begun by his predecesor at Dublin Castle, the Ulster King of Arms.

The first grant to a private individual made by the State was to a Colonel McCaffery in the United States of America. The first grant made to a public body (other than to the Irish Government) was to Ulster Bus in Belfast.

Thus, as is clear from the terms sited above, the Chief Herald of Ireland has control and authority over the arms of the six counties in the Ulster Province of the United Kingdom. While the administrative jargon of local government has changed in the Ulster Province, the counties have, indeed continued in their existence.

As far as the new administrative districts recently created in the Republic of Ireland are concerned, all of them have arms granted by the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland. I have no idea why they are termed counties, unless it had something to do with utilizing existing legislation regarding government funding of counties, as opposed to having to create new legislation to fund "cantons", or some other such term.

[thanmuwa]

All of the county arms in the whole of Ireland were granted by the Office of Arms at Dublin Castle. In 1943 Both governments agreed that the transfer of the Office of Arms would formally take place on 1 April of that year. Furthermore, the office (now under the administration of the Irish Government) would "continue to discharge, under the Irish administration, the functions to which it hitherto carried out in relation to the grant of arms, tracing of genealogies, etc."

That is interesting, I never knew that.

....Ulster Province of the United Kingdom. While the administrative jargon of local government has changed in the Ulster Province, the counties have, indeed continued in their existence.

There is no such thing as an "Ulster Province of the United Kingdom". The province of Ulster refers to 9 counties, only 6 of which are in Northern Ireland and the administrative changes only apply to these 6. To extend the history for those who are not aware, there are 4 provinces of Ireland (Cuigiu in Irish, which means fifths, refering to the fact that Meath and Westmeath used to be a 5th province, imaginatively called Meath), Ulster, Munster, Connacht and Leinster. This is the 4 province flag, one of my favourite flags. Part of Ulster (approx two thirds) became Northern Ireland.

I have no idea why they are termed counties, unless it had something to do with utilizing existing legislation regarding government funding of counties, as opposed to having to create new legislation to fund "cantons", or some other such term.

Because the government said so, and after all, they decide on these things. "County Dublin" continues in a sporting context, and I think it will be a long time before it enters public consciousness that there is no County Dublin any more...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

There is no such thing as an "Ulster Province of the United Kingdom". The province of Ulster refers to 9 counties, only 6 of which are in Northern Ireland and the administrative changes only apply to these 6. To extend the history for those who are not aware, there are 4 provinces of Ireland (Cuigiu in Irish, which means fifths, refering to the fact that Meath and Westmeath used to be a 5th province, imaginatively called Meath), Ulster, Munster, Connacht and Leinster. This is the 4 province flag, one of my favourite flags. Part of Ulster (approx two thirds) became Northern Ireland.

You seem to be confusing the post 1600-historical Ulster, which was ultimately divided into nine counties, with the geo-political area created after the treaty of 1921 and which was referred to as "the Ulster Province" and was comprised of six of those nine counties, and remained part of the United Kingdom. The remaining 26 counties formed the new country of Ireland, which although independent of British rule, became part of the Commonwealth.

The area roughly comprising the modern counties of Meath and Westmeath was, from time to time, considered as a separate kingdom. Generally, however, most folks would consider Ireland to have been comprised of four "kingdoms" or provinces. Interestingly, prior to about 1910 or so the four "provinces" were usually referred to as "kingdoms", the term "province" gaining in popularity after the establishment of the Irish Free State.

Because the government said so, and after all, they decide on these things. "County Dublin" continues in a sporting context, and I think it will be a long time before it enters public consciousness that there is no County Dublin any more...

You are technically correct, as the Local Government Act 1991 created the Dublin Regional Authority (a sort of Uber county body) with oversight of three (actually four) administrative districts: Fingal, Dun Laoghaire, Dublin City Corporation, and South County Dublin.

It was our general opinion at the time that the government chose to call these administrative districts "counties" because there was no other, suitable, administrative term that the Civil Servants in charge of carrying out the provisions of LGA 1991 could use. The LGA 1991 was a fairly complicated bit of legislation, and took until 1993 to enact.

[thanmuwa]

You seem to be confusing the post 1600-historical Ulster, which was ultimately divided into nine counties, with the geo-political area created after the treaty of 1921 and which was referred to as "the Ulster Province" and was comprised of six of those nine counties, and remained part of the United Kingdom. The remaining 26 counties formed the new country of Ireland, which although independent of British rule, became part of the Commonwealth.

Thanks for the concern, but I am not confused . In fact, as you well know (clear by the fact that you put it into quotation marks) What is colloquially referred to as the "Ulster Province" of the United Kingdom (meaning Northern Ireland) is not used officially and is incorrect (and it is a sectarian term in this context). Ulster correctly refers only to the 9 county region (or geo-politically Northern Ireland plus Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan). The geo-political region you describe is officially called Northern Ireland. But you knew that . See, no confusion at all, especially if you don't use Ulster to refer to Northern Ireland. Donegal for example is as "Ulster" a place as you could possible get, but it is definitely not in Northern Ireland.

And as to the Commonwealth comment, that is potentially misleading. Ireland is NOT part of the Commonwealth. Ireland became a democratic Republic (like the US) in 1949 meaning that we automatically left the Commonwealth (at the time republics weren't allowed in the Commonwealth). The Irish people have had no desire to rejoin since the rules were changed to allow democracies (the rules were changed to avoid losing India when it became a republic later in 1949. I guess Ireland wasn't a big enough pool of resources to change the rules for )

Also, parts of Ireland (the Treaty Ports) remained under British rule until 1938 but that is a bit of a nitpick.

The area roughly comprising the modern counties of Meath and Westmeath was, from time to time, considered as a separate kingdom. Generally, however, most folks would consider Ireland to have been comprised of four "kingdoms" or provinces. Interestingly, prior to about 1910 or so the four "provinces" were usually referred to as "kingdoms", the term "province" gaining in popularity after the establishment of the Irish Free State.

Granted, the Meath province is long outdated, I only mentioned it to explain the apparent inconsistancy of the provinces being called "fifths" in Irish. And also, as a Westmeath man, some of us are proud of the fact that we come from the province that held the seat of the High Kings . I am sceptical that many people would have called the provinces kingdoms, since the majority of the population would have called them cúigiú, which translates as province, not kingdom (translations from Irish tend to go with the closest Latin translation ie "province" rather than the english/germanic "kingdom"). I am however ready to be convinced and would be intrigued to see your references on that.

All this is of course off-topic (but interesting, at least to me ), and I hope I am succeeding in keeping this all historical and factual and steering clear of politics.

[thanmuwa]

It was our general opinion at the time that the government chose to call these administrative districts "counties" because there was no other, suitable, administrative term that the Civil Servants in charge of carrying out the provisions of LGA 1991 could use. The LGA 1991 was a fairly complicated bit of legislation, and took until 1993 to enact.

I am intrigued by this mysterious "our". What group is it you are talking about? I have visions of some secret Dan-Brown-esque group with cowls and the whole works .

Also, why not call them counties? Drawing up of the original county borders and calling them counties was an artificial process decided by a government, albeit many centuries ago. Surely it is the same process as redrawing county boundaries and renaming counties, just seperated in time (and this time by a democratically elected government)? Why would one be legitimate and not the other?
It is not as if there is a great big line imprinted in the earth seperating all the counties. The only political boundaries that make much sense to me are ones with a clear geographical division eg Connacht (and Roscommon) from Leinster (and Westmeath) by the Shannon at Athlone. A boundary that is solely a line on a map is a mere whimsy, a product of the imagination of Mankind, to be played with as such .

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Thanks for the concern, but I am not confused . In fact, as you well know (clear by the fact that you put it into quotation marks) What is colloquially referred to as the "Ulster Province" of the United Kingdom (meaning Northern Ireland) is not used officially and is incorrect (and it is a sectarian term in this context). Ulster correctly refers only to the 9 county region (or geo-politically Northern Ireland plus Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan). The geo-political region you describe is officially called Northern Ireland. But you knew that . See, no confusion at all, especially if you don't use Ulster to refer to Northern Ireland. Donegal for example is as "Ulster" a place as you could possible get, but it is definitely not in Northern Ireland.

When the treaty was being negotiated, both governments (and Carson) referred to what is now NI as "the Ulster Province" in all of their minutes and notes (this was because Donegal is also in the north of Ireland, but was to remain part of the newly formed nation of Ireland. That, as you noted, was why I used the quotation marks in my original posting.

And as to the Commonwealth comment, that is potentially misleading. Ireland is NOT part of the Commonwealth. Ireland became a democratic Republic (like the US) in 1949 meaning that we automatically left the Commonwealth (at the time republics weren't allowed in the Commonwealth). The Irish people have had no desire to rejoin since the rules were changed to allow democracies (the rules were changed to avoid losing India when it became a republic later in 1949. I guess Ireland wasn't a big enough pool of resources to change the rules for )

I have never suggested that Ireland is part of the Commonwealth. Further, there was no "automatic" action that took Ireland out of the Commonwealth. Actually, it was at the Commonwealth conference in Canada that Ireland's representative made the unilateral, and totally personal, decision--without the knowledge or consultation of the government in Ireland--to announce that Ireland was leaving the Commonwealth. He then walked out of the conference and headed into the bar.

In Dublin the Government was stunned, but chose to back that pronouncement anyway, rather than embarrass Mr. De Valera by repudiating the action of one of his closest friends. The fact that Ireland was a republic had nothing (or perhaps everything?) to do with it.

Granted, the Meath province is long outdated, I only mentioned it to explain the apparent inconsistancy of the provinces being called "fifths" in Irish.

Blame that on the "Kingdom of Kerry"

I am sceptical that many people would have called the provinces kingdoms, since the majority of the population would have called them cúigiú, which translates as province, not kingdom (translations from Irish tend to go with the closest Latin translation ie "province" rather than the english/germanic "kingdom"). I am however ready to be convinced and would be intrigued to see your references on that.

I think the best reference would be the very popularity of the shields depicting the arms of the four kingdoms/provinces that adorned all sorts of Irish souvenirs in the late 19th and early 20th century. Prior to about my (arbitrarily) chosen date of c.1910 the bulk of these tend to be labeled as "Four Kingdoms". I know, for a fact, that that is how Denis O'Conor Don always referred to them, but then perhaps he had a more vested interest in them than did many others!

All this is of course off-topic (but interesting, at least to me ), and I hope I am succeeding in keeping this all historical and factual and steering clear of politics.

Jeasus, but even the Pope in Rome himself couldn't keep a Wicklow man and a Westmeath man from taking politics-- or is that boloxtics?

Slan!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I am intrigued by this mysterious "our". What group is it you are talking about? I have visions of some secret Dan-Brown-esque group with cowls and the whole works .

You are not far off the mark! For several years I worked in one of the departments of the Ministry of Arts, Culture, the Gaeltacht, and Islands (the waste basket of government as I used to term it-- whenever the Department of the Taoisceach didn't know what to do with something, they dumped it on us; hence the sobriquet).

[thanmuwa]

When the treaty was being negotiated, both governments (and Carson) referred to what is now NI as "the Ulster Province" in all of their minutes and notes (this was because Donegal is also in the north of Ireland, but was to remain part of the newly formed nation of Ireland. That, as you noted, was why I used the quotation marks in my original posting.

They weren't referring to what is now NI, because quite simply, the Boundary Commission had yet to decide the border. Broadly speaking, on the table at the time were the options of a 9-county Northern Ireland (which could have been accurately referred to as Ulster), the six county option (the one taken) and a 4-county Northern Ireland as well as finer granularities. Carson had personally supported both the 4 and 9 county option previously. (by the way, minutes and notes of meetings from before the borders were settled are hardly an accurate description of the correct name of the country now!)

I have never suggested that Ireland is part of the Commonwealth. Further, there was no "automatic" action that took Ireland out of the Commonwealth. Actually, it was at the Commonwealth conference in Canada that Ireland's representative made the unilateral, and totally personal, decision--without the knowledge or consultation of the government in Ireland--to announce that Ireland was leaving the Commonwealth. He then walked out of the conference and headed into the bar.

You said previously

The remaining 26 counties formed the new country of Ireland, which although independent of British rule, became part of the Commonwealth.

That could easily be misinterpreted as continuing today.
I know it was a slip of the tongue (keyboard?) and you knew what you meant, as did I, but not everyone one here would have known that, and it would be misleading for people to think the Irish still have to tug the forelock at old Lizzie and Phil the Greek, now wouldn't it?

As for your cute little story, it was lovely, honestly, but the facts are as follows. The Statute of Westminster is clear - Members of the Commonwealth were required to have the British Crown as head of state. Ireland declared itself a free Democratic Republic ergo had to leave the Commonwealth. Automatically. It officially left on April 17th 1949. The London Declaration which first allowed republics in the Commonwealth was made on the 28th of April 1949, specifically because India refused to continue with the British Crown as head of state, and India was far to important to the Commonwealth to lose. Them's the facts Jack.

Is your middle name "Cruise" by the way?

[macwilkin]

Gents,

As interesting as this discussion is, let's try to steer the thread back "on-topic", if you please.

Regards,

Todd