Im having some trouble.

[O'Callaghan]

Every tartan had a beginning.

Many Scots tartans were simply picked out of Wilson's catalogue and then the mill re-named the tartan after the person who had bought it. Granted, that was in the late 18th century and the 19th, not the 20th or 21st. Quite a few other Scottish clan chiefs chose their tartans only when the King asked to see them in 1822, thinking they all had one (most of them didn't!). Still other Scottish clan Tartans were invented by a pair of English conmen (going as the Sobieski-Stuart brothers, but their real surname was Allen) who wrote an illustrated book and pretended it was a translation of a 17th century work. A few are older than any of the above, but only a very few, perhaps a dozen.

It's all hocus pocus. At least if you know that the Edwards tartan was designed in the 20th century by the Welsh Tartan Centre, then you know more about the origin of it than most Scotsmen do about theirs, and some of the origins of Scots tartans are very murky indeed. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

Us non-Scots have to stick together. The Callaghan tartan was designed in 2007 by Peter Callaghan, who I don't know from Adam, but it is the association with the name that matters, IMHO. There again, it's too bl**dy expensive as well!

[Phogfan86]

Same goes with the Irish County tartans as well (and a handful of Irish Family Name tartans)... But that's for another thread.

Point of clarification: you mean that Irish County tartans are recent inventions? Just making sure I'm following here.

[Morris at Heathfield]

I don't see anything wrong with the Edwards tartan, except for the lack of price competition. The Welsh National would probably be more widely available, however. There's also a MacEdward tartan, but no doubt that would be a custom weave. I only mention it because I have Edward ancestors—from Cortachy in Scotland. Nothing to do with the Welsh Edwardses, really, but it's another option.

A great kilt would require a length of double-width fabric.† Unfortunately, if you want a tartan that isn't very common, you would have to get a custom weave, and most weavers require you to buy a lot of fabric (like 30 yards) if you want a custom run of double-width fabric. For custom runs of single-width fabric they usually require less, like 4 or 8 yards.

So, uh, which is more important? The particular tartan, or the great kilt?

Point of clarification: you mean that Irish County tartans are recent inventions? Just making sure I'm following here.

The Irish County tartans were designed by Polly Wittering for the House of Edgar in the 1990s. Then there's the Irish County Crest tartans, which were designed even more recently by Viking Technology, Ltd.

† If you're ambitious enough, however, you might try doing what they did back in the 17th and 18th centuries, which was sew two lengths of single-width fabric together. I don't recall having heard of anyone doing that nowadays, though.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Every tartan had a beginning.

Many Scots tartans were simply picked out of Wilson's catalogue and then the mill re-named the tartan after the person who had bought it. Granted, that was in the late 18th century and the 19th, not the 20th or 21st. Quite a few other Scottish clan chiefs chose their tartans only when the King asked to see them in 1822, thinking they all had one (most of them didn't!). Still other Scottish clan Tartans were invented by a pair of English conmen (going as the Sobieski-Stuart brothers, but their real surname was Allen) who wrote an illustrated book and pretended it was a translation of a 17th century work. A few are older than any of the above, but only a very few, perhaps a dozen.

It's all hocus pocus. At least if you know that the Edwards tartan was designed in the 20th century by the Welsh Tartan Centre, then you know more about the origin of it than most Scotsmen do about theirs, and some of the origins of Scots tartans are very murky indeed. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

Us non-Scots have to stick together. The Callaghan tartan was designed in 2007 by Peter Callaghan, who I don't know from Adam, but it is the association with the name that matters, IMHO. There again, it's too bl**dy expensive as well!

There are a few differences, which I think are very important. First of all, it is ultimately the clan chiefs who give approval to the Scottish clan tartans. No matter the origin of the tartan design itself, and whether it started as a commerical design or a fraud being pushed by a couple of Polish-Scots, in the end it is the clan chief who has the authority to say, "This is the tartan of my clan." So the tartan has the approval of an authority for the clan or family.

The second consideration is time. The tradition of Scottish clans and families being represented with a tartan design is one that goes back 200 years or more. It is very well established and widely recognized as a Scottish tradition around the world.

Neither of these things is true in the case of the Welsh tartans. The Welsh family tartans were designed by a commerical entity (as were many Scottish tartans, as you correctly point out), but they have no approval at all from anyone representing the families whose names they bear. And there is no tradition in the Welsh culture of representing family names with tartans. The commercial entitiy in this case did not just invent new tartan designs, they have invented the very idea of Welsh name tartans. Now, if this practice is still around in 200 years, that tradition will have been created. But right now, as it stands, it's simply not part of the Welsh heritage.

And my main problem is that people generally understand Scottish family and clan tartans to be a "traditional thing" and part of Scottish heritage. So people are very likely to assume incorrectly that these Welsh family tartans are also a "traditional thing" and part of Welsh heritage. People are being misled, and that's my major problem.

As JimE just stated in this thread, he did not know these were recent designs with no connection to the families. I imagine most people who encounter these tartans think the same.

Now that you know the actual status of the tartans, you are free to wear them, of course. There is nothing wrong with wearing these tartans. I just don't like the thought of people buying and wearing their "Welsh family tartan" under the false assumption that they are participating in some ancient Welsh tradition.

[RockyR]

[OFF TOPIC]

Point of clarification: you mean that Irish County tartans are recent inventions? Just making sure I'm following here.

Correct. As stated above, Polly Wittering disigned the Irish County Tartans (and the Irish National tartan) in 1995 and have them produced by the House of Edgar. In 2004, Viking Technology (AKA Gaelic Themes, who are very nice people and a sponsor up here BTW) designed the County Crest tartans (as well as the Ireland's National, Irish American and Wild Geese tartan) and have them produced by Marton Mills.

None of these tartans are officially 'adopted' (or are even being considered) by any of the counties or by any governing body in Ireland to the best of my knowledge. If Matt or any other scholar has any proof otherwise, I bow to their expertise as they know much more than me.

[BACK ON TOPIC]