Mixing tartans - yes or no?

[Father Bill]

http://ccsna.org/jsep50a.htm#A0

The opinion of the 12th Duke of Argyll, from the Clan Campbell Society of North America website, reaffirmed by the present Duke of Argyll. A longer explanation can be found in Alastair Campbell of Airds' Campbell Tartan, and in an appendix to vol. 1 of his A History of Clan Campbell.

Basically, the Campbells have customarily worn the Government tartan, likely because those Campbells who actually had kilts had them due to their military service. If I remember my facts correctly, the only Campbell tartan that was submitted to the Highland Society of London was the Campbell of Breadalbane tartan (that worn by the Breadalbane Fencibles, not the current Campbell of Breadalbane tartan).

During the 19th century two "Campbell of Argyll" tartans emerged. One had white stripes on the green check, and the other had alternating yellow and white stripes on the green check. Each was worn by successive Dukes of Argyll (the 6th and 7th Dukes). No reason was apparently given for the new tartans. Whether it was due to vanity, fraud (e.g. by the Sobieski Stuart brothers), or a desire to differentiate the clan tartan from that used by the 42nd Regiment, is unknown. However, the common folk around Inveraray believed the new tartans to be special tartans only to be worn by the chief. The tartan now known as "Campbell of Argyll" was published in numerous tartan books, beginning with the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842, while the Campbell of Argyll tartan with the white stripe was published in Smiths' The Authenticated Tartans of the Clans & Families of Scotland in 1850, apparently with the approval of the 7th Duke of Argyll.

Later Dukes of Argyll apparently reverted to wearing the Government tartan, but by then the "Campbell of Argyll" tartan (with yellow and white stripes) was widely known, being woven by the tartan mills, and being sold as "Campbell" or "Campbell of Argyll". It would not occur to most Campbells unfamiliar with their clan's custom to look for their tartan under "Black Watch" or "42nd".

One Duke of Argyll went so far as to employ an artist to paint black the light stripes on a portrait of either the 6th or the 7th Duke of Argyll. When the artist found out what his job was, he refused. A version of the story is found in Sir Thomas Innes of Learney's revision of The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands. Innes of Learney, taking as fact that the Campbell of Argyll tartan was the original Campbell tartan, interprets the event as an attempt by the Campbell chiefs to appropriate the universal, national Government tartan.

With the arrival of tartans in the ancient colors during the early or mid-20th century, the Campbells gradually began adopting the ancient colors. Even though tartans in different shades are supposedly the same tartan, it is generally understood that the Government tartan in the modern colors is the "Black Watch", while in the ancient colors it is the Campbell clan tartan.

Another generous answer. Thanks fellows; I am deeply appreciative of your expertise and kindness in sharing.

Bill

[Father Bill]

Morris at Heathfield has certainly done his homework. At least it shows that a once feared clan has translated the energy once used to hatch nefarious plans against its neighbours, into internal tartan politics.

Along with the other Whig clans of the mid-1700s, Clan Campbell filled the ranks of the government highland regiments that both policed the highlands and fought the House of Hanover's battles against the French, at high cost. In a generation, gentlemen from Jacobite clans joined them.
If there ever was a Campbell "family" regiment, it was the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, rather than the Black Watch.

Finally, I'm beginning to think that diced hose might be the right choice at this point.

Once more . . . my deep and appreciative thanks.

Bill

[AKScott]

Just to bring us back to my original question - what do the style guys think of the idea of kilt in one my clan's tartan and hose in another of the same clan's tartan.

I have seen the general idea of this question a few times now in various threads. The general consistent answer from those in Scotland who are up to date on this sort of thing is you may wear (if the occasion justifies) as many different tartans of the same clan as you can fit into one outfit.

The rub is mixing tartans of different clans, or badges and baubles and so forth.

I recall once reading that if you choose McOnion in honor of Unlce Mike, you should wear McOnion only and not slip in something from Clan McLettuce in rememberance of dear Aunt Alice.

[ThistleDown]

Interestingly I am not too sure how Clan Chattan stand on this as they are a confederation of individual clans. I suspect their "Cat", which seems to be a common emblem might get you through. No doubt, Rex "thistledown" will chip in with how they do it?

Since you asked, Jock, each of the constituent clans of the super-clan, the Clan Chattan, have their own tartans and each of their chiefs their own crests. Several of the latter (the Mackintoshes, Macphersons, one old branch of the Macgillivrays, the Macbeans and the MacThomases) are cat-based but each is individual to that clan chief. The Clan Chattan chief himself, Mackintosh of Torcastle, also bears the cat as a crest.

Others such as the Tulloch Davidsons, the old Macphails of Inverarnie, and another branch of the Macgillvrays use the stag, the Farquharsons of Invercauld and an old branch of the Shaws use a demi-lion, the Clanay Shaws use a dexter hand with a sword and the Macqueens a wolf.

These are not for mixing and matching. A Macintosh, for example, wears the Macintosh tartan and a belted cat crest in acknowledgment of his/her chief. There is an exception: the Clan Chattan tartan --formerly known as Mackintosh Chief -- is worn by all in the constituency along with the belted crest of their own chief. And it is acceptable to wear your own tartan and the Mackintosh of Torcastle cat crest in its belt.

Although there is a periodic mixing of tartans within a clan (for example a hunting and a red Shaw) there is no combining of tartans outside your clan (Davidson with Mackintosh, for example). Having said that, though, it does happen that Macphails, Macbeans and Shaws wear the Mackintosh tartan -- sometimes in combination with their own -- and that is probably because the tartans of these three clans are relatively new and are all based on the quite old Mackintosh.

[davidlpope]

Just to bring us back to my original question - what do the style guys think of the idea of kilt in one my clan's tartan and hose in another of the same clan's tartan.

When you say "hose in another of the same clan's tartan", do you mean Argyll hose? If so, then I think the Argyll hose should be in the same colors as your kilt. That being said, most tartans are composed of multiple colors and there is considerable variation when designing a pair of custom Argyll hose, so it's really more of a style question (does it look right?) than a propriety question....

If you're looking to have one pair of hose to wear with several kilts, why not go for a nice two color dice- red and green, red and white, or red and black. Come to think of it, I have a pair of red/black that I need to sell...

[Cygnus]

...and the Macqueens a wolf.

...

Rex,

I always thought that the Macqueens' cheifly crest was a kind of cat (an heraldic tyger), not a wolf; though the chiefly arms do prominently feature wolves' heads, so I could be mistaken.

And thank you for your answer on cap badges and tartans for these clans - that is a question I had been meaning to ask for some time!

[Jock Scot]

Thank you Rex, I have wondered how it all worked. I look up at Torcastle(it has a grisly reputation) when wetting a line, quite often and have a smile at how the Mackintosh of Torcastle obtained his title from the Camerons.

[CMcG]

Too Much is Not Enough <snip>

...and there are times and places when you want every square inch you can drape or pin to your body. As somebody said nearby not too long ago, sometimes you have to Go Big or Go Home.

The trick, like so many other tricks, is to know when to do which... But if you aren't sure, you're probably better off with less.

At this point, I don't know when to go with maximum tartan but perhaps you can shed some light on this MacLowlife? This is an idea that I've been working on for the last while...

p.s. I hope you received my reply to your P.M. awhile back?

When you say "hose in another of the same clan's tartan", do you mean Argyll hose? If so, then I think the Argyll hose should be in the same colors as your kilt. That being said, most tartans are composed of multiple colors and there is considerable variation when designing a pair of custom Argyll hose, so it's really more of a style question (does it look right?) than a propriety question....

If you're looking to have one pair of hose to wear with several kilts, why not go for a nice two color dice<snip>

davidlpope's suggestion to match Argyle or diced hose to one's kilt is spot on. Am I wrong in thinking that actual tartan hose are fairly rare?

[Cygnus]

...
davidlpope's suggestion to match Argyle or diced hose to one's kilt is spot on. Am I wrong in thinking that actual tartan hose are fairly rare?

I think he was spot on about the Argyll hose (and I think he only mentioned Argyll hose as far as matching is concerned). As davidlpope implied, I think one has a bit more leeway with diced hose. I've seen the Black Watch tartan worn with red and white diced hose to good effect, and red and white don't match the Black Watch tartan at all.

I'd imagine part of the reason actual tartan hose are so rare is that they'd either have to be made from the same tartan as the kilt in the same way as a historic type of hose called cadadh, or be of a simple enough sett to be woven like modern hose.

I've actually been trying to find somebody that could replicate the actual set of my tartan in a pair of hose (the Macqueen tartan seems simple enough...), but I haven't had much luck yet. We'll see how it goes!

[robbiethepiper]

Tartan ties are really useful for strangling redcoats......