Significance of these types of clan pins.

[ctbuchanan]

I say this with the greatest of respect to all, but we have a mixing of cultures here and I am not at all convinced that Scots kilt culture and American military(in a civilian context)culture are mixing well. To me if you are wearing the kilt(tartan) then Scots traditions should prevail lest the accusation of "playing at being a Scot" be levelled at one.

I am not saying for one second that one should ignore one's nationality, or your service to one's country and I hope that you all know I am not. But dress as a Scot and follow their dress conventions or dress as an American(jeans and military style shirt/T shirt/whatever?) but I cannot see that the two cultures(in the context of civilian military/American) gel together well in kilt form. I my view, leave the medal ribbons and other military badges at home when wearing the kilt as a civilian, apart from very specific events, like Armistice Day. Sorry.

I have the utmost respect for your opinion and understand your point of view about mixing culture but I must disagree. Although I was born in the USA my mother was born in Scotland and my father in York. He served in the Royal Horse Artillery and then the Mounted Section of the Palestine Police from 1932 to 1949, leaving as Assistant Supt of Police in Jerusalem (equiv. to a colonel I believe).

The problem is that we don't wear the kilt as a costume attempting to be Scottish. The kilt, as has been illustrated in thousands of posts on this website, is a "living" garment and can (and in my opinion should) be adapted for use in any culture that those of us of Scots ancestry are found. To say that if we wear the kilt we must wear it according to the custom only of Scotland or the U.K. is, with all due respect, impossible. If a person earns their military credentials here in the USA he/she is perfectly proper in following our customs when wearing the kilt, I can discern no reason why they would be forced to wear them according to only British custom. The codes state that they can be worn with "proper" attire. In my humble opinion nothing could be more proper than the kilt.

[davidlpope]

I say this with the greatest of respect to all, but we have a mixing of cultures here and I am not at all convinced that Scots kilt culture and American military(in a civilian context)culture are mixing well.

I my view, leave the medal ribbons and other military badges at home when wearing the kilt as a civilian, apart from very specific events, like Armistice Day. Sorry.

If a person earns their military credentials here in the USA he/she is perfectly proper in following our customs when wearing the kilt, I can discern no reason why they would be forced to wear them according to only British custom. The codes state that they can be worn with "proper" attire. In my humble opinion nothing could be more proper than the kilt.

I always scratch my head over why so many kilted men wear decorations in the daytime. I have miniature medals that I wear with evening dress when the occasion calls for it, but it seems ostentatious to wear a ribbon rack to a regular highland games.

I guess I'm more of the school that one's military service, in itself, leads to a deep sense of personal satisfaction and that there is no need to advertise such service to others. In that sense, it's not a question of whether one CAN wear personal decorations with civilian dress, but that it seems a bit common to wear such decorations in circumstances where they seem showy/out of place, etc.

[creagdhubh]

I always scratch my head over why so many kilted men wear decorations in the daytime. I have miniature medals that I wear with evening dress when the occasion calls for it, but it seems ostentatious to wear a ribbon rack to a regular highland games.

I guess I'm more of the school that one's military service, in itself, leads to a deep sense of personal satisfaction and that there is no need to advertise such service to others. In that sense, it's not a question of whether one CAN wear personal decorations with civilian dress, but that it seems a bit common to wear such decorations in circumstances where they seem showy/out of place, etc.

I scratch my head too, David. I too have miniature medals that when wearing Highland dress, I choose to wear with only evening attire, affixed at the appropriate place on my regulation doublet. As a former active-duty Marine with various awards, to include parachutist wings ("jump" wings), from my time in service, I do not wear these pinned all over my chest during the day at Highland games and other related gatherings.

Me - wearing my miniature medals and "jump" wings with a civilian suit - quite appropriate for the day, my lovely wife, also a Marine, and the Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps. Photo taken at Marine Week, Saint Louis, Missouri, June 2011.


Semper Fidelis and Ductus Exemplo,

[Fitzy]

I have the utmost respect for your opinion and understand your point of view about mixing culture but I must disagree. Although I was born in the USA my mother was born in Scotland and my father in York. He served in the Royal Horse Artillery and then the Mounted Section of the Palestine Police from 1932 to 1949, leaving as Assistant Supt of Police in Jerusalem (equiv. to a colonel I believe).

The problem is that we don't wear the kilt as a costume attempting to be Scottish. The kilt, as has been illustrated in thousands of posts on this website, is a "living" garment and can (and in my opinion should) be adapted for use in any culture that those of us of Scots ancestry are found. To say that if we wear the kilt we must wear it according to the custom only of Scotland or the U.K. is, with all due respect, impossible. If a person earns their military credentials here in the USA he/she is perfectly proper in following our customs when wearing the kilt, I can discern no reason why they would be forced to wear them according to only British custom. The codes state that they can be worn with "proper" attire. In my humble opinion nothing could be more proper than the kilt.

Well said ctbuchanan.

-----------

Jock.
I know you mean no disrespect.

And, I mean no disrespect for kilts.

Like many in Scotland, I only wear my kilts on special occasions to honor my ancestors. Not that I think there's anything wrong with wearing a kilt everyday. Just that for me, it's more to do with my family history than comfort.

And since I was one of only a handful of NCOs authorized to wear those crests and they were presented to me by the Battalion commander himself, they are very special to me. So like my kilts, they are only worn on special occasions with great respect.

Paul

[ctbuchanan]

I would like to only add a few points to perhaps put the "scope" of the issue into perspective lest our Scottish brethren get the wrong impression.

I have no problem with the gentleman in the photo at the start of the thread wearing whatever insignia he is entitled to. But I will add that I have attended hundreds of games from California to Florida and of course my home in New England. There are very few who wear any military ribbons or medals that I can recall with civilian attire. Insignia of various branches of the military and rank (i.e. sergeants stripes etc.) are more common as a cap badge or kilt pin - all in very good taste.

There are of course those that are commonly seen at the games: members of SAMS (Scottish American Military Society) are common at many games and usually wear a military shirt with their kilts and look excellent. Re enactors are also common of British regiments from many periods of history including modern times.

So I would reassure our friends from the U.K. that while we do see them worn with the kilt, it is not at all (in my opinion) common.

By the way, my father used to fly the Union Jack from the front of our house every 4th of July just to rile the neighbors, but never once wore any of the several British military medals he was entitled to in all the years I knew him.

[Dale Seago]

I have attended hundreds of games from California to Florida and of course my home in New England. There are very few who wear any military ribbons or medals that I can recall with civilian attire. Insignia of various branches of the military and rank (i.e. sergeants stripes etc.) are more common as a cap badge or kilt pin - all in very good taste.

I do remember seeing one guy at a California event. . .Grizzled, buzz-cut grey hair, lean build with skin like leather; USMC tartan kilt with EGA plate on his kilt belt; gold-accented miniature Ka-bar as a sgian dubh; black shoes so polished they'd blind you in the sunlight; khaki shirt with a chestful of ribbons, and with rank insignia on the sleeves: E-9/Master Gunnery Sergeant.

Inasmuch as he looked like he could still take out pretty much anyone else at the entire event and might even enjoy proving it, I was not about to tell him that he looked anything short of magnificent.

My dad would never wear a kilt, or military rank insignia; but that's not to say he wouldn't visually announce his military background. Here he is, a week ago at the Rocky Mountain Highland Games:

[Jock Scot]

I have the utmost respect for your opinion and understand your point of view about mixing culture but I must disagree. Although I was born in the USA my mother was born in Scotland and my father in York. He served in the Royal Horse Artillery and then the Mounted Section of the Palestine Police from 1932 to 1949, leaving as Assistant Supt of Police in Jerusalem (equiv. to a colonel I believe).

The problem is that we don't wear the kilt as a costume attempting to be Scottish. The kilt, as has been illustrated in thousands of posts on this website, is a "living" garment and can (and in my opinion should) be adapted for use in any culture that those of us of Scots ancestry are found. To say that if we wear the kilt we must wear it according to the custom only of Scotland or the U.K. is, with all due respect, impossible. If a person earns their military credentials here in the USA he/she is perfectly proper in following our customs when wearing the kilt, I can discern no reason why they would be forced to wear them according to only British custom. The codes state that they can be worn with "proper" attire. In my humble opinion nothing could be more proper than the kilt.

Alright we are both speaking with the utmost of respect, that is good and I am glad.

It is the mixing of the two cultures that I have a problem with. The Scots kilted one and the US ex-serviceman wearing his decorations one. No one is attempting to force anyone to do anything. What I am suggesting is by wearing a Clan tartan kilt showing an interest and connection(by implication at least) to Scotland and of course wearing your countries decorations connects you to your homeland. All I am suggesting is that the two cultures do not happily mix. Take either in isolation and it works, put them together and I am not so sure.

Now wearing a USMC tartan kilt, for example, does add another dimension to the discussion and in truth, I have not really come up with satisfactory thoughts about that, but at least by wearing a Unit tartan does take a large chunk of "playing at being a Scot" thing away from the discussion.

[ctbuchanan]

Jock - I would offer this thought then - you live in the mother country where the kilt was born and perfected. In Scotland people should clearly wear it within the societal boundaries you are accustomed to. :aside: Although where exactly the tartan army fits in with that thought I do not know.

Even in other commonwealth countries such as Australia and Canada I observe a much more traditional approach to the wearing of the kilt. Quite honestly my Scottish cousins think us quite strange the way we carry on at American Highland Games as a tradition almost unrecognizable to them. They had never heard of a "clan village" until they came here to visit.

In the USA, I believe, it is perceived differently. We are very accustomed to taking parts of our heritage and family culture and adapting it to the polyglot melting pot that is our country. When I see kilts with cowboy boots I don't cringe. When I see a kilt with black army boots and spiked hair I might blink, but who am I to judge? When I see a kilt with a tshirt and the black rampant lion of the Clan Buchanan, I'm usually looking at myself in the mirror.

Here in the USA we are nothing else but a mixing of cultures and perhaps we are more accepting of the many ways the kilt has been changed and utilized here. But we are also very appreciative of those that adhere to the more traditional approach as a proud reflection of our heritage. We clearly can see it easily both ways.

[Nick the DSM]

Random question but it would be relevant. Would Canadian veterns of their highland regiments fall under as part of the USA or Scottish customs of wearing the medals with the kilt? Surely, they have their own rules but do others see it as a bad mix as well when they go about at highland games and such?

[Moski]

Alright we are both speaking with the utmost of respect, that is good and I am glad.

It is the mixing of the two cultures that I have a problem with. The Scots kilted one and the US ex-serviceman wearing his decorations one. No one is attempting to force anyone to do anything. What I am suggesting is by wearing a Clan tartan kilt showing an interest and connection(by implication at least) to Scotland and of course wearing your countries decorations connects you to your homeland. All I am suggesting is that the two cultures do not happily mix. Take either in isolation and it works, put them together and I am not so sure..

I think the two do mix in a fine show of the individual heritage of the wearer and personal accomplishments of the wearer. Look at it as the American mate of the Regimental tie. Isolation cuts off and sequesters both.

Now wearing a USMC tartan kilt, for example, does add another dimension to the discussion and in truth, I have not really come up with satisfactory thoughts about that, but at least by wearing a Unit tartan does take a large chunk of "playing at being a Scot" thing away from the discussion.

USMC kilt and decorations proves the point and nicely shows that the two do mix when appropriately done. Part if the problen is the "playing at being a Scott" which is, (on my limb here...but I think a strong one) for most kilt wearers a grossly inaccurate statement and assumes an insulting posture because we're not Playing at being anything. I think if we get rid of the negative assumption we'll have clear air to see the respect and homage to both "cultures".

But you do indeed keep us thinking