The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[CMcG]

Hobsbawm and Ranger's book is on my self-generated PhD reading list... it just got a whole lot more interesting...

I have not read this one, but have read Trevor Roper's "Invention of Tradition". Just as Roper's book regurgitates pervious works, I wonder if there's anything new in Hobsbawm and Ranger's book?

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I believe Roper's "The Invention of Tradition" is an essay inside the book The Invention of Tradition edited by Hobsbawm and Ranger. The post-modernists would say there is nothing new anywhere these days, but that book has at least had a fairly significant impact on the social sciences and humanities.

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The Irish kilt can be dated to the very late 1800's or very early 1900's. Written contemporary evidence by Pádraig Pearse/Pádraig Anraí Mac Piarais clearly says it was not in existence as a considered Irish garment in 1900.
There was an attempt by a wealthy but influential minority to make it the national dress of Ireland/a symbol of Nationalism around this time, but it failed for several reasons very obvious to anyone who has studied Irish history.

While the kilt may have failed to become the official national attire of Ireland, it has gained far more currency in the Irish diaspora. Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities takes a similar tack to Hobsbawm et al.'s critique of tradition, but applies it to nation building. In the age of the internet, however, transnational communities are facilitating the re-imagining of communities. The word "nation" has other valences than country and can imply a cultural or ethnic group as well. Perhaps then, the Irish kilt was not such a failure after all

[MacSpadger]

While the kilt may have failed to become the official national attire of Ireland, it has gained far more currency in the Irish diaspora. Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities takes a similar tack to Hobsbawm et al.'s critique of tradition, but applies it to nation building. In the age of the internet, however, transnational communities are facilitating the re-imagining of communities. The word "nation" has other valences than country and can imply a cultural or ethnic group as well. Perhaps then, the Irish kilt was not such a failure after all

Yes, point taken very clearly, the "re-imagining of communities" in particular.

I am very much aware from previous experience that the Irish diaspora have sometimes great passion around this subject, so I have been tiptoing quite carefully. It's really only just starting to dawn on me that for some the wearing of a kilt overseas is not laying claim to an ancestral identity, but creating a new cultural identity based on newly invented or very much altered traditions adapted to the land in which they currently live, hence the wearing of items that would never be seen in the Old Country. (I have once seen a group of men in Dublin wearing kilts, but they turned out to be a Stag Night party over from Edinburgh for the weekend).

It's just an unfortunate effect that re-imaging a community seems to further create a cultural divide between the diaspora and the native inhabitants. Confusion abounds for those of us whose families remained here. That goes for Scots as well as Irish, the "Kirking of the Tartans" springs to mind. As I have said previously, I don't often post here because, quite simply, I often don't know what people are talking about or why they are discussing it. Thanks for keeping it friendly and informative.

[macwilkin]

It's just an unfortunate effect that re-imaging a community seems to further create a cultural divide between the diaspora and the native inhabitants. Confusion abounds for those of us whose families remained here. That goes for Scots as well as Irish, the "Kirking of the Tartans" springs to mind.

An ironic example, to be sure, as the original "Kirkin" was designed to raise funds for discplaced children in Glasgow and Edinburgh by the Rev. Peter Marshall, a Coatbridge man. I've been trying to get the word out about the real origins of the service for years; the myth is more romantic, I suppose, but the real story is more powerful, INMHO, as it occured in many of parents' lifetimes, and in an event that has more of a profound effect on our world today then the '45...

T.

[Blackrose87]

An ironic example, to be sure, as the original "Kirkin" was designed to raise funds for discplaced children in Glasgow and Edinburgh by the Rev. Peter Marshall, a Coatbridge man. I've been trying to get the word out about the real origins of the service for years; the myth is more romantic, I suppose, but the real story is more powerful, INMHO, as it occured in many of parents' lifetimes, and in an event that has more of a profound effect on our world today then the '45...

T.

Was Kirking the Tartan ever actually recorded anywhere in Scotland? From the little I've read, the "original" kirkin was in New York.
So either through the real story or the myth, it still seems like a re-imagining of Scottish customs for the American Diaspora.

[macwilkin]

Was Kirking the Tartan ever actually recorded anywhere in Scotland? From the little I've read, the "original" kirkin was in New York.
So either through the real story or the myth, it still seems like a re-imagining of Scottish customs for the American Diaspora.

The New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington, DC, was where the first Kirkin' service was held by Dr. Marshall. I've been research the history of the Kirkin' for over a decade, and I have never found any references to such a service in Scotland itself. My own theory is that Dr. Marshall may have been inspired by the Covenanter's Conventicles during the "Killing Time", but Dr. Marshall never gives us a solid clue to his inspiration.

In any case, the fact that it is a service dedicated to the "bond of friendship" between Scotland, the UK and the USA during WWII, when were united in a common struggle, is just as moving, if not more so, than the myth that has grown up about it in diaspora circles.

T.

[Zardoz]

While the kilt may have failed to become the official national attire of Ireland, it has gained far more currency in the Irish diaspora.

This is very true, and not just with the Irish. It's become a symbol of Celtic identity for many folks. We see images all the time of Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Breton people at home and abroad expressing their Celtic heritage by wearing the kilt.

[MacSpadger]

This is very true, and not just with the Irish. It's become a symbol of Celtic identity for many folks. We see images all the time of Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Breton people at home and abroad expressing their Celtic heritage by wearing the kilt.

See, this whole "Celtic" thing is anither thing I and many others just don't get. The English Romantics started heaping this "Celtic" name on non-English inhabitants of Britain during the Romantic period in the late 18th century. In the late 1700s popular poetry spread the notion that you were either a Celt, an Anglo-Saxon or a Viking. Aye, that's right, poetry written in the drawing rooms of the stately homes of England without a thought toward fact.

Fact is there was no more a Celtic race than a north American race. In fact DNA testing has shown that the markers most commonly associated with the "Celts" are to be found more frequently in England than in Ireland or Scotland. Males in my family have been tested and we are members of the Y-DNA R1a1 Haplogroup, indicating Viking ancestry, despite us coming from a very boring, never went anywhere, when is it going to stop raining, Scottish lineage.

If you have the time, this article is quite explanatory. If you don't have the time, I suppose an attention grabbing quote from it would be “Celt” is now a term that sceptics consider so corrupted in the archaeological and popular literature that it is worthless.

Or; less controversially, The English still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source as the Irish, Welsh and Scots. These figures are at odds with the modern perceptions of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity based on more recent invasions. There were many later invasions, as well as less violent immigrations, and each left a genetic signal, but no individual event contributed much more than 5 per cent to our modern genetic mix.
The first inhabitants of Britain and Ireland were the dark haired Iberians/Basques, and evidence of their linegage is still seen today in the "Black Irish" of the west coast and the dark haired Highlanders of the West Highlands and Western Isles. These people have DNA profiles that have strong similarities with the current Portugese, an old people pushed to the very Western fringes of Europe by an agressive expanding population.

Any "Celtic" DNA you may have could indicate Merrie Olde Engerland as your ancestral home, rather than Hibernia or Caledonia.

As a very astute Irishman once said, "Celtic" doesn't mean anything unless you are trying to sell someone something.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get the Celtic thing. The Scottish kilt appeared in the Highlands of Scotland in the 1700's and became fashionable among the toffs for two influential periods. Through this it became Scotland's national dress. I don't see how it's "Celtic".

If someone says I like wearing a kilt because I like the look\I like the feel\It's a laugh\it makes me feel different\I just like dressing up now and then\I just really like the bloody things, I have no problem with that at all. I just don't get the representing/honouring all Celtic nations/ancestors biz.

I just think that there may be a bit of confusion between the Scots and Irish. Doing business with Americans here and abroad, I have been asked if I am Irish more times than I can remember. If I say I am Scottish I have been told that I do not sound Scottish. This coming from individuals who have never been to Scotland. If I insist I am Scottish, I often get a reply along the lines of "Well, it's all Celtic, isn't it".

No, it isn't, there's quite a dreadful history between Scotland and Ireland for anyone who chooses to seek it out. Without being too obvious, it's easy to see why the introduction of the kilt in Ireland in 1900 failed, for many it was a symbol of something else, something negative. Thankfully times are changing, but the idea of some sort of Celtic unity remains a fantasy, (least of all because if you want some true Celtic unity you are going to have to include the English with their heavily "Celtic" DNA, like it or lump it). I have just reminded myself yet again why I do not post here too often.

[Jock Scot]

MacSpadger.

Well done laddie and I for one wish that you would post here more often. Although I do agree that delivering not such good news, has its dangers!

[Blackrose87]

If someone says I like wearing a kilt because I like the look\I like the feel\It's a laugh\it makes me feel different\I just like dressing up now and then\I just really like the bloody things, I have no problem with that at all. I just don't get the representing/honouring all Celtic nations/ancestors biz.

Don't most people just wear their own tartan? They're just representing their own family, nothing to do with 'Celtic' nations. Similarily I'm getting a Ulster tartan kilt, to represent the province where I'm from. Again nothing to do with Celtic nations or ancestors, just representing where I was come from.

I just think that there may be a bit of confusion between the Scots and Irish. Doing business with Americans here and abroad, I have been asked if I am Irish more times than I can remember. If I say I am Scottish I have been told that I do not sound Scottish. This coming from individuals who have never been to Scotland. If I insist I am Scottish, I often get a reply along the lines of "Well, it's all Celtic, isn't it".

I don't think there's all hat much confusion between the countries. Maybe with some people abroad with no knowledge at all of the places. But can you blaim them? Would you automatically know the difference between a North and South Dakota accent for example?
Then again, maybe my accent is just stronger than yours but I've been to America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and I've never been mistaken for a Scot.[/QUOTE]

No, it isn't, there's quite a dreadful history between Scotland and Ireland for anyone who chooses to seek it out. Without being too obvious, it's easy to see why the introduction of the kilt in Ireland in 1900 failed, for many it was a symbol of something else, something negative. Thankfully times are changing, but the idea of some sort of Celtic unity remains a fantasy, (least of all because if you want some true Celtic unity you are going to have to include the English with their heavily "Celtic" DNA, like it or lump it). I have just reminded myself yet again why I do not post here too often.

I don't really think that there was much negative feelings solely towards the Scots at the start of the 20th Century. I always felt it was against the British. Even though some events heavily involved the scots, e.g the Ulster Plantation, here we're ultimately 'British' actions.
As far as I'm aware there have always been connections between the two countries. Growing up in a city occupied by a British army, I never felt any animosity towards the Scots. The majority of my friends would have supported Scottish football teams for example.
I can't say it was the same 100 years ago, but I think the kilt failed because we had no history of wearing it and no connection with it. It wasn't that we felt it was 'Scottish' so we were supposed to hate it. Probably more that the nationalists just didn't like the looks of it?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

MacSpadger, thanks for your most recent post. I, too, grow weary of the generic use of the word Celtic. (I like the quote about trying to sell something).

It calls to mind those who want to group all Native American peoples under the same tribal umbrella, never thinking that thousands of miles separated many different tribes across two continents. Of course they are not all the same! A Navaho and a Cherokee have about as much in common as a Libyan and a Swede! I hear complaints from my Cherokee neighbors about people who come to the boundary expecting to see tee-pees and feather bonnets. Sadly, some Cherokee are happy to oblige them (it pays the bills).