The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[Jock Scot]

Sorry jock, I think we'll just have to disagree on this point. I had to go through an army checkpoint everyday going home from school, sometimes being searched There were soldiers walking around the streets with rifles. Maybe I'm being naive, and the same kind of thing happened in Aldershot or Tidworth.

When the occasion has arisen there have indeed been checkpoints in Aldershot and Tidworth and at our airports and docks and I am afraid they will be, occasionally we hope, a fact of life in this uncertain world we now live in. If you go past any barracks in the UK you will see armed guards on sentry duty.

I grant you that "the troubles" caused an extreme measure by the Civil Administration to call in the British Army, nevertheless I think that everyone of whatever persuasion will have to admit that there were people behaving appallingly badly and yes the British army too on occasion. So yes you are, I am afraid, being naive.

[Blackrose87]

When the occasion has arisen there have indeed been checkpoints in Aldershot and Tidworth and at our airports and docks and I am afraid they will be, occasionally we hope, a fact of life in this uncertain world we now live in. If you go past any barracks in the UK you will see armed guards on sentry duty.

I grant you that "the troubles" caused an extreme measure by the Civil Administration to call in the British Army, nevertheless I think that everyone of whatever persuasion will have to admit that there were people behaving appallingly badly and yes the British army too on occasion. So yes you are, I am afraid, being naive.

You can't say armed guards on sentry duty outside a barracks are the same as soldiers patrolling the whole city, and doing random checks on people and houses.
There is also a difference between having 'occassional' check points, and a permanent stop and search check point on my road for 30 years.

From what I've read on this forum you always have insightful and intelligent comments, the majority of which I agree with. However, I can't agree with you on this. I know what I grew up experiencing, and it wasn't civil administration.

[Jock Scot]

You can't say armed guards on sentry duty outside a barracks are the same as soldiers patrolling the whole city, and doing random checks on people and houses.
There is also a difference between having 'occassional' check points, and a permanent stop and search check point on my road for 30 years.

From what I've read on this forum you always have insightful and intelligent comments, the majority of which I agree with. However, I can't agree with you on this. I know what I grew up experiencing, and it wasn't civil administration.

What you grew up in was the result of people behaving appallingly badly and as a result of that the army did their job and a very difficult job. If there are ruthless armed and lawless people in the community then what you had to endure was the result. Not pleasant, not something any thinking person would want for sure, or to be proud of necessarily, but that was still not an occupation.

If those ruthless, armed, dangerous people in NI were not there . Why would the armed British Army be out on the streets of NI? If everything was just dandy there, the Army had no need to be there patroling the streets. The fact is, that some people of NI were behaving well beyond what is required in a civilised society and that was going on well before the army was called in. Things escalated from there of that there is no doubt and there is also no doubt that there were genuine grievances that existed, but once the bomb and bullet took precedence over the ballot box then in reality the Civil Authorities had no other choice than to do what they did. That still does not make an occupation.

Yes we both know where we stand, let us move on.

[cessna152towser]

Please folks, don't let the anger rise.
Lets not have to lock a good thread.
Please bear in mind our rule on keeping discussion polite.
We all have our own reasons for choosing to wear the kilt, there is no need to justify wearing the kilt or condemn others for doing so.

[Jock Scot]

Gael Ridire.

With the greatest of respect what I happen to think about who wears the kilt from a Scots point of view is a side issue on this thread and on the whole we have all stuck mainly to Irish issues. The Scots have inevitably come into the conversation from time to time and yes I have added a comment or six about some Scots point when appropriate, but I think mainly we have all stuck to the Irish kilt question-----even me.

Macspadger can and must speak for himself, but he and I do seem to be ploughing a similar furrow and speaking again, now, for myself yes indeed the "cat is out of the bag" as far as world kilt wearing goes. I have gone on record in the past and I think Macspadger has also made the point, as have others, on this thread, it is some of the reasoning by many here for justifying wearing the kilt that seems rather tenuous to some of us. I for one do not understand it. Finally to try to get back to the Irish slant, particularly as the "modern" kilt is rather less connected to modern and old Ireland than many might think , it is those justifications that are to me, on the whole, rather thin. Others are entitled to differ and I respect that.

Before the whole website bursts into flames, I am not -----nor is Macspadger or anyone else who has posted here on this thread is being anti Irish, anti Irish wearing the kilt, anti anyone wearing the kilt, apart from my one post where I made someone aware of a school of thought. Mostly the point of this thread is the Irish, bless them, Irish nationalism connected to the kilt, a tricky subject that has been well and sympathetically discussed in depth and at considerable and interesting detail and the kilt of the Irish variety, which we are all here interested in, to a greater or lesser extent. For this particular thread anything else not connected to those points are a mere, but possibly interesting, detail.

[MacSpadger]

............. it is some of the reasoning by many here for justifying wearing the kilt that seems rather tenuous to some of us. I for one do not understand it.

....and to bring the thread back to it's origins, evidence from 1900 to 1903 suggest that the native Irish found the justifications tenuous too.

As has been said, it is a matter of puzzlement as to why the kilt has been taken up as a widespread symbol of American-Irishness in very modern times, when it was rejected as being entirely non-Irish in Ireland itself. To be concise, the kilt is definitely not a symbol of nationalism in Ireland at all, but has recently become so in many parts of the USA. That's the quandary.

To paraphrase Jock Scot, a tricky subject indeed. Having read all the replies carefully, I still don't have a definitive answer. It would appear, however, like the St Patrick's Day Parade, the wearing of the kilt as a symbol of Irish identity, (for those born outside of Ireland), has become an American tradition with it's deeper roots in the USA, not Ireland.

These things do reflect back over the water, of course. I remember absolute loathing and contempt being abroad in Scotland when the first Tartan Day was announced in New York. Phrases like "You'd be laughed off the planet if you tried that over here", abounded, and that's one of the more polite ones. As other Tartan Day events started springing up in Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc, the potential for generating income was finally acknowledged by the powers that be and lo and behold Scotland, tearfully swallowing the lumps, had it's first Tartan Day in 2006.

A similar thing to St Patrick's day in Ireland going from a day of religious observation and abstinence to an American style street party, including the consumption of alcohol, over a few short years.

There are an estimated 312,780,968 people living in the USA.
There are around 5.2 million in Scotland and around 4.5 million living in the Republic of Ireland. The plain fact is that whatever cultural aspects take part on your side of the globe, it's bound to have a tidal effect on our side of the world by sheer weight of numbers. St Patrick's Day "celebrations" and Tartan Day are prime examples of this. Maybe someday the kilt will eventually be accepted as a symbol of "Irishness" or "Celticness" outside of the USA, but I can't quite see it myself. The ordinary Irish people had the common sense to reject the kilt as a symbol of nationality in 1900, and common sense still abides in Ireland today. By the time this bland "Celticness" may come about, my auld heid will no doubt be lying in the cauld clay, so by that time I will no longer be baffled by what goes on among my kilt wearing cousins over the Atlantic. Cheerio.

[kilted scholar]

I have no personal stake in this debate, not being Irish or having any connection with Ireland, but I thought this link might be of interest. I came across it in looking at the news on the BBC website today. It's about a St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham today that attracted 85,000 people and contains a picture of a kilted pipe band. I have no point to prove on this - I see no reason to depart from the clear historical position that the kilt has no established links to Ireland.
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-12727171

[Paul Henry]

I have no personal stake in this debate, not being Irish or having any connection with Ireland, but I thought this link might be of interest. I came across it in looking at the news on the BBC website today. It's about a St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham today that attracted 85,000 people and contains a picture of a kilted pipe band. I have no point to prove on this - I see no reason to depart from the clear historical position that the kilt has no established links to Ireland.
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-12727171

It was last year's news, but there may wellbe another this year!

[Blackrose87]

I think this discussion has gone way off topic, so sorry if that was may fault at all.
I was originally curious about the use of the kilt by some early 20th century nationalist leaders in Ireland. Being a nationalist myself, I found it strange that I had only just discovered this, even thought studied Irish history at school.
I don't think Pearse and any followers felt that their was any historical or cultural link to the kilt, and Pearse said as much himself. They were not trying to find a link in history as justification.

[seanachie]

I think this discussion has gone way off topic, so sorry if that was may fault at all.
I was originally curious about the use of the kilt by some early 20th century nationalist leaders in Ireland. Being a nationalist myself, I found it strange that I had only just discovered this, even thought studied Irish history at school.
I don't think Pearse and any followers felt that their was any historical or cultural link to the kilt, and Pearse said as much himself. They were not trying to find a link in history as justification.

And let's not forget Eamonn Ceannt, who was married in a kilt and had a Papal audience in the kilt and, like Pearse was an important part of history as a signatory of the proclamation of the republic. The railway station in Galway is named for him as well as a park in Dublin http://www.dublincity.ie/RECREATIONA...eanntPark.aspx