"Balmoral" Doublet Help?

[Seawolf]

Nice find! Meal do naidheachd!

Seawolf

[MacSpadger]

Buckles would most definitely go with your new jacket. You already have the full length diced hose, by the look of your pic. They are meant for full evening dress, as is your doublet. Usually buckles are worn on a "bar buckle" type shoe, like the one in the picture.

I've never seen buckles attached to Ghillie Brogues in real life, but there are vintage photos of older generation, (Victorian & Edwardian) , kilt wearers doing so. Maybe nowadays not many would notice the difference, to be honest. The Irish guards wear buckles attached to ordinary brogues via a plastic tongue that fixes under the laces.

To buy an actual pair of buckled brogues is a very expensive business. There are few makers nowadays. There are a pair on Gumtree over here at the moment for £70, which is cheap. They are exactly my size, but, like your doublet, I doubt I'd have much opportunity to wear them.

I have two pairs of shoes I wear with my kilt, an army issue pair of thick bullhide brogues that I've had for well over 20 years that will last longer than I will, and a pair of Ghillie brogues that are thin leather, but comfortable. I think they went by the brand name "The Piper". I've certainly marched quite a few miles in them without too much problems with comfort.

[Jock Scot]

CMcG.

Well not quite! What is this semi-formal thing? Never heard of it. White tie is height of formality and black tie is formal. It is the degree of formality that one needs to be aware of to dress appropriately. Most of us have no need for white tie attire , for very good reasons, but the more normal and more usual black tie events can range from a high society event where bells and whistles might be required(or NOT!) to a private dinner where just dress attire is required. However, please let us not go down this semi-formal route, it is a misleading dead end.

[CMcG]

CMcG.

Well not quite! What is this semi-formal thing? Never heard of it. White tie is height of formality and black tie is formal. It is the degree of formality that one needs to be aware of to dress appropriately. Most of us have no need for white tie attire , for very good reasons, but the more normal and more usual black tie events can range from a high society event where bells and whistles might be required(or NOT!) to a private dinner where just dress attire is required. However, please let us not go down this semi-formal route, it is a misleading dead end.

You are quite right that semi-formal is misleading. I continue to find dress codes confusing because people use such different terminology, without even counting people using one term but meaning something else! Perhaps referring to black tie as semi-formal is archaic because of today's more relaxed social standards of formality

I have read that black tie can be referred to as formal or semi-formal, as well as just evening dress, depending on who you are talking to. White tie can apparently be called formal, full formal, or full dress... there are probably other names too This is further complicated by the fact that black bow ties seem to be considered acceptable for white tie Highland attire! I prefer formal for black tie and full(est) formal for white tie

Truthfully, I don't really need white tie attire at this point in my life, but depending on which university I end up at once I get my PhD, I hear that it might become more necessary for some official functions and ceremonies. It doesn't hurt to be prepared and at least I know I can also wear my new doublet for black tie too. Besides, it leads to interesting discussions on Xmarks

[Cygnus]

I was under the impression that prior to WWII, today's "black tie" was informal while today's "white tie" was formal. I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the past 60 years "semiformal" came to be a term used for black tie, though I haven't seen it used as such. The steady degradation of dress codes has really led to a great deal of confusion, particularly since they degrade at different rates in different places.

In this century it would seem that "formal", in the United States, can be interpreted as "no sandals allowed"...

Truthfully, I don't really need white tie attire at this point in my life, but depending on which university I end up at once I get my PhD, I hear that it might become more necessary for some official functions and ceremonies. It doesn't hurt to be prepared and at least I know I can also wear my new doublet for black tie too. Besides, it leads to interesting discussions on Xmarks

It's just like MacLowlife pointed out above - if you don't have it, you won't attend such an event - but if you do, you're likely to find an event to suit your wardrobe.

[JWLC]

To briefly get back on topic, I found and bid on a very similar doublet on eBay this morning but didn't win.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....vip=true&rt=nc

At £10.49 it was quite a bargain, and it appears to differ from CMcG's doublet in the lapels. Sadly, I may not have the need for another doublet at this time.

I was under the impression that prior to WWII, today's "black tie" was informal while today's "white tie" was formal. I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the past 60 years "semiformal" came to be a term used for black tie, though I haven't seen it used as such. The steady degradation of dress codes has really led to a great deal of confusion, particularly since they degrade at different rates in different places.
In this century it would seem that "formal", in the United States, can be interpreted as "no sandals allowed"...

You're right. According to the Black Tie Guide, The terms "informal" and "formal" to refer to 'black tie' and 'white tie' respectively had 'downgraded' throughout the ages such thus black tie had begun to be designated as gradually "semi-formal", and presumably by today, "formal". Personally, I'd prefer to revert to a nomenclature where "semi-formal" refers to "black-tie" and "formal", to "white-tie" but we knwo that's not going to happen.

In UK terms, "dress" means formal in the terms we are talking about above.
As I understand it, in the USA and Canada it appears that "dress" means something rather less formal. For example, a smart shirt used for a funeral or business wear with a suit is often described here by you chaps as a "dress" shirt.
For us over here in the UK, a "dress" shirt is a formal shirt to be worn with formal attire.

Here in Australia, we tend to follow the UK in terms of satorial definitions. Hence a "dress shirt" is (properly) taken to mean one that's worn with formal wear. At least, that is what you'll be offered if you were to ask for one at any tailor or decent menswear outlet.

You are quite right that semi-formal is misleading. I continue to find dress codes confusing because people use such different terminology, without even counting people using one term but meaning something else! Perhaps referring to black tie as semi-formal is archaic because of today's more relaxed social standards of formality

I have read that black tie can be referred to as formal or semi-formal, as well as just evening dress, depending on who you are talking to. White tie can apparently be called formal, full formal, or full dress... there are probably other names too This is further complicated by the fact that black bow ties seem to be considered acceptable for white tie Highland attire! I prefer formal for black tie and full(est) formal for white tie :

Like those who have posted above, I too found semi-formal to be unfortunately one of the most confusingly abused terms in today's society. In Australia, dress tends to err on the side of casual and I've heard/read more than once that "formal" is simply a way of saying "turn up in something dressier than jeans"! I've been to "semi-formal" gatherings where outfits have been a mélange of jeans and shirts to suits to black tie.

I've found that those events that manage to have people best adhere to the dress code are ones that specifically state, say, "black tie" or "lounge suits".

At the end of the day, what matters is context. And if still in doubt, clarify with the host/hostess and suit on -- or kilt on -- as appropriate.

Truthfully, I don't really need white tie attire at this point in my life, but depending on which university I end up at once I get my PhD, I hear that it might become more necessary for some official functions and ceremonies. It doesn't hurt to be prepared and at least I know I can also wear my new doublet for black tie too. Besides, it leads to interesting discussions on Xmarks

CMcG, are there actually many universities in North America where white tie is called for at functions? At Oxbridge, TCD and the other older British universities, that is the case, and elsewhere in Europe -- especially Scandinavia.

I shouldn't think that this particular doublet would look too dressy at a black tie function. Particularly if the majority -- if kilted -- may invariably be dressed in PCs and Argylls and may not know better.

[CMcG]

...
CMcG, are there actually many universities in North America where white tie is called for at functions? At Oxbridge, TCD and the other older British universities, that is the case, and elsewhere in Europe -- especially Scandinavia.

I shouldn't think that this particular doublet would look too dressy at a black tie function. Particularly if the majority -- if kilted -- may invariably be dressed in PCs and Argylls and may not know better.

There probably aren't many (any?) universities in Canada or the US that have white tie functions, but given the vagaries of the academic job market, I could very well end up outside North America. There is also always the possibility that I could get invited to a full formal ball or other white tie event. If it ever happens, I'll be ready, and until then I'll just enjoy trying to figure out some of the intricacies involved

For now, I'm more likely to wear my new doublet for black tie events, so I'm glad you agree it wouldn't be too formal. If I vary the accessories as I suggested in an earlier post, it should indeed fit in with the PCs and dress Argylls, though it will also still stand out a bit.

[Downunder Kilt]

CMcG I think your new jacket will be ideal for black or white tie events. For black tie either buttoned or unbuttoned would suit the occasion, and done up for white tie of course. As for your ghillie brogues with buckles and short laces, I would think it comes into the realm of you adding your own finesse to the outfit. In fact I am attending a black tie murder mystery dinner (set in the 1920's) aboard a train, this friday. I am intending to wear ghillies based upon your buckle attachment design. Good buy and wear the new jacket in good health

[MacSpadger]

CMcG.
What is this semi-formal thing? Never heard of it.

I also can’t get my head around people saying that a jacket like this should be worn/can be worn unbuttoned to "black tie" events. It's already been explained to us over here that black tie has a different meaning in the USA, ( and now, apparently, also Australia), but I still can't quite get the "unbuttoned" business.
I am asking this because this thread is in the “traditional” section: This jacket is designed to be worn with a belt over the waist, so why would you unbutton it?
Would you take the belt off?
Or would you just not wear a belt with it?
If the latter, then why not just wear an Argyll?

The Prince Charlie is a jacket designed to be worn “unbuttoned” and that’s one of the reasons why I have never owned one, I don’t see the point in whichtin’ aroon’ in a jaiket that disnae’ dae’ fit a jaiket’s supposed tae’ dae’ an’ hae’ ivvery ither cheil’ smekkin’ Ah’m a feil gype.

Even with an Argyll, where would you wear one “unbuttoned”? I am looking right now at the programme/menu of the last formal function I attended, there were about 150 kilted men present, mostly in black Argyll's but two of the "Old & Bold" were wearing Sheriffmuir Jackets with belts over the top. (We are talking about two men in their late 80's here, and that's their understanding of evening dress, from their time period).

After supper, in print, permission is given to “loose a button”. As it was a big dinner, that’s understandable. There was then a medal presentation and an MSR from a piper. Buttons were then firmly back in place for the official toasts, the Queen and the Regiment. I'm no expert on sartorial correctness, I'm just a scunner from a cooncil hoose that dis' fit he's telt, but I've been doing what I'm told in the name of tradition for a long time.

Why and where would “unbuttoned” suit a formal occasion?

[saxandpipes]

Why and where would “unbuttoned” suit a formal occasion?

I don't know if your question specifically relates to the doublet of the OP, but as you've mentioned PCs and Argylls I guess you mean "in general".

I have a Regulation doublet, which like the Prince Charlie (and I believe Sheriffmuir...) is supposed to remain undone. The tailcoat of a white-tie outfit (it does not get more formal that this) is similiarly designed to remain undone. That being said- the buttons of the above (non-closing jackets/doublets/coats) are also not supposed to be even remotely close to being able to close. (Thus, if your buttons almost meet- with such a jacket- then it is too big).

Cheers,

Michael