Let's get real!

[Terry Searl]

Very good Jock now the thing you're proposing is becoming clearer to me.

Yes it can be a locked informational sticky rather than a discussion forum. As I said I do keep a bit of an eye on the Kilt Hire world in Scotland and there isn't a great amount to discuss. However in general I do prefer people having the ability to discuss things, and if there wasn't much activity on a Kilt Hire Forum how much harm would it do? Threads here auto-lock anyway.

I'm still not sure how a Hire Style Guide would be different from a general Traditional Highland Dress Style Guide.

And also I question how much value such a style guide would have for prospective Kilt Hire customers.

Yes in Glasgow there's a load of Kilt Hire shops and some of them hire a fairly wide range of clothing. You can go in some of them and hire the sort of wedding attire seen in more traditional settings such as Day Dress jackets etc. So for people in the UK (at least people who have Hire Shops such as these around) an X Marks Hire Style Guide would be helpful.

But for most of the rest of the world Kilt Hire shops are few and far between and the customer has to hire what the shop has to hand.

I used to work at one of the two Highland Outfitters who did Kilt Hire here in Greater Los Angeles (with a population of nearly 20 million people). We had black Argyll jackets, black Prince Charlies, white hose, and kilts in two tartans: Gordon and Royal Stewart. I worked there during the height of the White Hose Hegemony so white hose it was! We had Gordon kilts because a local pipe band went defunct and the shop got all their kilts. (I think that shop how has Black Watch kilts for hire.)

The customers didn't know a thing about Highland Dress and usually didn't care about the details. We would often dress the Groom in a Prince Charlie and Royal Stewart kilt and the other men in Argylls and Gordon kilts. Here, wearing black tuxedos for weddings is nearly universal regardless of when or where the wedding takes place. So customers expected black jackets and that's what we had.

The sort of customers we had wouldn't know about a site like X Marks even if it had existed at that time.

This comment is exactly so in my opinion especially the last comments, and to be honest I very much doubt Kilt Hire Shops in North America will stop renting the same attire package for either daytime or night time weddings or any other events., because that is what their customers EXPECT

Yes what they rent may not be what is stylishly perfect in regards to day time or night time.......but when you pay out $160.00 for three days, minimum time, that's what I paid almost 5 years ago and had to purchase the white hose, likely so the rental shop didn't have to be concerned about washing them, you expect the whole formal package.

Most of the 800.000 population on Vancouver Island lives on bottom third of the island. Most of the 4 million people in the rest of the province lives in one area of the mainland known as greater Vancouver so from that you can gather how many kilt hire shops there are, and how far people have to go to get rented attire .........
As has been stated before, a customer depends on what the kilt hire shop keeper offers in his hire package to be right, why wouldn't they, ........ and also as has been said, the "costume" is what is seen on almost every computer site that deals with hiring kilted attire AND MOST OF THOSE SITES SHOWING MOST OF THE PHOTOS ARE FROM THE UK SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC ..... so people here think if that's what they wear in Scotland it must be right ......... until the hire shops on the UK side change things, I doubt the hire shops on this side will........ and most of the public hiring kilt attire will expect what they are getting now.

[Steve Ashton]

I will state again - that while we will continue to look into a way to address Jock's suggestion -

Rental companies have the right to do whatever they feel is in the best interest of their company. X Marks has never been about telling someone that how they run their company is wrong.

Perhaps it is a subtle difference but we feel that there is a difference between giving good examples by our own outfits, we inspire and guide others in a positive way. It is felt that we do not have to stoop to running down another person's choice. Especially if they are new to kilts or perhaps only wore what the rental outfit offered and did not really have a choice.

We would hope that by being a good example we can be more effective than becoming negative.

So we will not have photos of rental outfits and hold them up for ridicule as examples of how not to dress. We will not become "The People of Wal-Mart". We would prefer that X Marks remain the positive "guiding light" of the kilt world.

Perhaps the rental companies will follow our example.

And we feel that with all the positive examples that are all over this forum - That we have, and continue to do, what we set out as our goal.

We would like to thank Jock for his suggestion but feel that this matter cannot be solved in the manner suggested.

Therefore we feel, that for the present, this issue is closed.

[Jock Scot]

With all due respect Steve, if a thread is locked then how can members add to it? If they cannot add to it, then the unwanted and completely unnecessary hire company bashing situation is not an option to any of the ordinary members here.

[Steve Ashton]

Ah, well any thread where we try to tell people what to avoid with a rental is moot. The rental companies will continue to offer what they offer. We cannot change that.
Anyone who walks into a rental shop will get whatever the shop carries. There is very little chance of someone asking to rent something that is not in the rental fleet.

So they would come to us only after the fact. Well after any advice we could offer.

So we are back to being able to lead, with positive examples. We can help a guy make a decision on a future purchase but it does little good to tell him that the outfit he rented and wore is not what we would have worn.

If someone really wants to change the thinking of those who own rental shops, the best way would be to direct them here so they can see for themselves.

But we cannot tell them that they are wrong or hold any one of them up as an example of what not to wear.

[Jock Scot]

Again with the greatest of respect Steve you are missing my point. Whilst you and others are quite right there could be an aspect of telling people what and how to run their businesses, but I am not wanting to tell anyone what to do and again you are quite right that hire shops will do what they want and with all the time and money that they have invested in their businesses they are not likely to change any time soon, if ever.

I am thinking from another angle. This website rightly prides itself on many things and one of those things is providing information on aspects of kilt attire. For example, contemporary kilt attire, traditional kilt attire, historical aspects, and so on.

What this website does not have is anything about aspects on kilt hire attire. There is a gap in the website's advice arsenal and my point is that it is a glaring omission of a major part of the general kilt attire world. After all kilt hire attire styles are as different as chalk and cheese to other aspects of kilt attire styles and illustrations and discussions about this aspect are not catered for. Yes there are a few kilt hire adverts , but where are examples for members to see and maybe compare, on this website ? The discussion aspect where is it? Now, I can quite see the discussion aspect has its dangers! But overtime I think things will settle down rather like the traditional kilt attire website has. So perhaps, as a first tentative step for us to take on kilt hire attire is a locked thread with kilt hire attire examples for all to see? How much interest this will generate I cannot say, but at least a large chunk of the kilt attire world that has been missing could now be included.

[kingandrew]

I still feel like a polished version of Taskr's write-up with some good photos of the items mentioned would be very helpful to a newcomer looking for basic advice for his first time out kilted. It's certainly true that someone renting is not going to be getting stuff the shop doesn't offer. However, it is also true that the renter won't be getting everything the shop offers. So some guidance on which items are typically considered suitable to certain times of the day, levels of formality, and suggestions about which items work well together would be useful to such a newcomer. And putting them together in such a simple format would make them easily accessible and usable.

To me it feels like the sort of thing Xmarks does so well. Setting the example, as Steve says.

Andrew

[jumary]

Perhaps a good question would to ask what someone needing to rent a kilt outfit could do if armed with advice from this website. Different hose, wearing the kilt higher, wearing one's own shoes (always a plus in my book!), not striving to be matchy - matchy? All might help.

[Steve Ashton]

This is an open call to any X Marks member who owns or works in one of the UK shops that are primarily doing business in the rental/hire business.

Please post here or contact me via PM.

There are some questions that my help us, help you.

Can you offer suggestions on how X Marks can help your rental/hire business?

How can we help present your business in a positive light?

What options does your company offer a customer?
Does your company offer rentals/hire as a package or can a customer choose "ala carte"?
Do you offer alternative footwear?
Do you offer your customers options in hose color?
Do you offer different sporrans? Is a belt always part of your package?
Do you offer different jackets and/or vest/waistcoats?
Is a fly plaid always a part of your packages?

Does your company teach a customer the difference between the different types of kilts?
Does your company teach the difference between the different fabrics and weights kilts can be made from?
Does your company teach the wearing of the kilt at the anatomical waist or do you offer different kilts to those who prefer to wear a kilt lower?
Does your company teach the placement and purpose of the kilt pin?
Does your company teach the wearing and purpose of a sporran?
Does your company teach the purpose and wearing of the Dirk Belt and Waistplate?
Does your company teach the purpose of the Sgain Dubh?

To our other members - please, if you are not engaged primarily in the rental/hire business, do not respond to this post.
I will accept responses from outside the UK - if - your business is primarily rental/hire.

[OC Richard]

What options does your company offer a customer?
Does your company offer rentals/hire as a package or can a customer choose "ala carte"?
Do you offer alternative footwear?
Do you offer your customers options in hose color?
Do you offer different sporrans? Is a belt always part of your package?
Do you offer different jackets and/or vest/waistcoats?
Is a fly plaid always a part of your packages?

These things can probably all be determined by examining a firm's public website.

And I would assume that a representative of a hire firm would respond with information in line with their website.

[Steve Ashton]

Yes, I know. That is why I asked.

But this will let you know what I am up against with this suggestion.

If we do not have an actual rental/hire person giving their input everything is just hearsay. If we want to give honest and forthright advice then we better have facts.