Let's get real!

[Jock Scot]

This is a kilt website! It's not solely a traditional kilt attire website, its not solely a contemporary kilt website, it's not solely kilt hire website, etc.. We all have our preferences and our likes and dislikes, however those preferences are catered for by having various sections within this website which should cover all points of view and at the moment there is a discussion going on here that is discussing the merits of adding another section, in some form, to cater for a long neglected aspect of kilt attire,on this website.

Yes, kilt hire attire has always been present in the background and because of that it is little understood and because of that it is often criticised unfairly, although there are real issues mainly due to mislabling that do cause worrying misunderstandings.

There are three threads at the moment that illustrate the real differences of view not only from one side of the Atlantic to the other, but also differences of style, so whether we like it or not,there are real differences in styles between one set of kilt attire and another. So pigeon holes and labels are essential to steer conversations to the right place and in consequence a smoother atmosphere for the members is made available to all.

When all said and done, no one kilt style is better than another, different for sure and perhaps more appropriate on occasion, but not better.

Now, if anyone wants advice on traditional kilt attire I may decide to offer advice and opinions and people will do with that advice what they will. Yes, I will and do point out that a wedding picture, for example, posted here as being traditional is actually not in the least traditional. Failing to do so only leads to yet another layer of misinformation. It may be uncomfortable for some but it's the right thing to do in the long run. Misinformation in this modern world is a major blight as it can be spread so easily and quickly.

Generally speaking I have no real interest or knowledge of band kilt attire, kilt hire attire, contemporary kilts, etc., but should I decide to read the threads then that is my choice. BUT, those that actually know what they are talking about should be listened to and yes there always exceptions to most situations so a few things mentioned in good faith do need some latitude!It's the same for every one else with their own particular interests. So pigeon holes and labels are important tools to filter information to the right place but wriggle room is needed to allow for different circumstances. Father Bills excellent current thread in the " putting it on properly" section illustrates the situation perfectly.

[hector]

I often look on the site, nothing more, nothing less. I have to say I never felt very comfortable here. In the beginning I tried to contribute on some topics, but the reactions I got made me withdraw any initiative. The atmosphere is not very welcoming. A pity!

[Profane James]

It seems the kilt hire industry is propagating a stereotype - of some verifiable origin, I'm sure. Unfortunately these shops have invested in this image; and humans, in general, have a hard time changing our minds. Especially when we've invested ourselves at any amount.
It's a tall order, but worth the battle. Tact is paramount.

[kingandrew]

Hector,

I am sorry to see that you have felt uncomfortable. I think that most of the regular "rabble" here intend to be welcoming and friendly. So it saddens and worries me that newcomers like yourself are feeling uneasy.

It may be something for a different thread, but I wonder about what specific suggestions you might have to help make this forum feel more welcoming to newcomers.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Andrew

[CollinMacD]

I love to visit, contribute, read, understand, and belong are for several reasons. Put two people in a room, you get two different opinions. Put fifty people in a room you have formed camps with some agreeing and some against those who agree. So now you have a forum reaching out across national boundaries, with a common focus, with so many different views, opinions, and what each person believes to be facts. The result could be very spirited discussion, as many take this very personally, like some are assaulting there intelligence.

Often many are not right or wrong but these are opinions or in many cases personal taste, often based on their geographic location or their own experiences on the subject at hand. My own opinion, some post things that proves all their taste is in their mouth, and I just pass by and often no response, as I will really not help that person, as they do what they want, but seeking your approval fo just poor taste or bad information. Many ways we are all like that, so to me not worth it to make a negative opinion, as all of us have faults.

In the end the person asking for advice is either looking for approval, looking for acclimates, showing off, or truly trying to get answers from those who know. Poster all have different motives, but as the reader or replier, you can click to read or move on, and if you chose to click, you have the choice to post or not, if you choose to post, think before you post, be critical if you wish, but kind; be factual or respect the poster, again be kind. If you feel over critical, my suggestion, why post, just move on. This site has an excellent group and its an honor to be part of this site, I respect all and every opinion.

This site offers all the above, and I find it fun to read many of the posts. When I do post, I certainly do not expect all will agree, or say that is great, we all have different tastes. I appreciate and do consider advice, but does not mean I agree or I will take it. However, criticism will happen, and the people who ask for advice need to be prepared that not all will agree, and other take a more aggressive response, but get over it you asked for it.

For the poster, understand what you are posting before you do, and expect not all are going to agree, not all have the same way to convey their opinions, and not all are going to think the same as you. Keyboards often gives you the power to write stronger then you would if you had a face to face conversation with that person. So take the position behind the keyboard you write as if you are talking to this person face to face, don't hide behind the written word.

As far as adding more topics, I think sites need to refresh every once and a while, listen to the members, and if you can add new topics and remove those the membership/posters are not responding too.

Love this sight, respect all, and be happy.

[Steve Ashton]

I'm going to admit to being just a bit confused.

I can't remember a single time someone joined us and posted "I'm going to be renting an outfit from my local shop. What do I need to know before I go?"

We will often see someone post a photo after the fact such as "Here is the rental outfit I wore to my wedding last month. What do you think?"

We will also have people who do not yet have a kilt join but they are usually looking for advice on where or what to buy.

So I would take a guess that those who are looking for advice on a rental, who run across X Marks are lurkers.

With that in mind I guess we could produce a single photo tutorial for those lurkers. It would have to be easy for them to find so I could produce a notice that would be seen by anyone not logged on which contained a link to the tutorial.

But such a post would need to be locked so that a lurker was not having to sift through pages of comments.

Jock, would that satisfy you?

[Father Bill]

I'm confused too - mostly by why this is a separate thread.

However . . .

If we were to do such a thread/ post, Taskr's description from the other thread might be a helpful starting point to be edited perhaps, enlarged on perhaps, to have photos added perhaps. We need to understand however, that as O C Richard has so often proven, styles change even in kilts, so those photos and descriptions might eventually have to be adjusted.

Here is Takr's post from the other thread:

First off, thanks for dropping by at XMarks before the big day.

No matter the occasion, kilts have been and continue to be popular attire and given the price of the complete outfit, hiring/renting can be a very good choice from the many reputable shops out there. Still, there are a lot of things to absorb in what to wear and a few pitfalls and hints we’d like you to know about that might even save you a few pennies, while the final choices are certainly yours to make.

- what you wear with it matters. Just like other clothing, the kilt is dressed up and dressed down by what you wear with it.
- more is not better. Recall that the average highlander is a fairly pragmatic sort who doesn’t mind getting well dressed but might not care much for it. A lot of ‘regular’ shoes, shirts and ties can be worn with a kilt. Casually elegant might be the phrase to keep in mind. See the man and not the bling
- the Prince Charlie (PC) is actually a tuxedo jacket. If your event is not formal, see if the shop has an alternate jacket such as an Argyll. A Jacobite shirt is a work shirt. Wear with caution to expected dress codes
- vest. You don’t have to wear one with a PC, but it looks nicer. For sizing , when wearing a vest no shirt visible between the bottom of it and top of the kilt.
- bow ties with PC is usual. There are other choices of course but usually not with a PC.
- shirt. Crisp white with collar for a PC. Probably white with an Argyll, but not necessarily if you have a nice one already. Any colour can do if not wearing a jacket at all.
- fly plaid. Not required by most of us. Can also be an issue to deal with all that cloth swinging around at inopportune times.
- belt. If wearing a vest, no.
- dirk. No
- sporran. Fur, bright and shiney are not essential. Many plain looking black sporrans will suit your occasion. Choose what you like the look of.
- squin dubh. A nice touch, but not a must have. Many shops have bladeless ones which look nice but don’t present any problems regarding knives and such.
- hose/socks. White and black are usually the only choices. You’d probably find a 50/50 split on which to wear. Maybe a colour you like is on sale*
- hose garters. A plain colour looks very nice while a lot of them match the tartan of the hired kilt. Plain if you can*, and paired at 3:00 on right calf and 9:00 on left.
- shoes. Have a nice pair of black shoes that you can tidy up nicely? Good. Ghillie brogues are not required and the laces can take a bit of practice to keep from falling.
- underneath. Kilt shops will require you wear something next-to-skin. It’s a good idea, since you can’t know if the fellow before you did

There are are lots of pictures of kilted gents on the Internet. View with caution. Let your style be your guide and don’t feel you have to wear every option in the shop because they think you should. Less can be better. Casually elegant. Enjoy your event!!

and, hey, take some pics then come back and show us the great time you had. We’d be happy to welcome you.

* if you decide to buy any items to make the outfit your style, you’ll have started to gather what you need when you get your own kilt. Or, you can offer the items for sale online.

A couple of minor typos, Taskr, but in general well done. I'd suggest writing out the words "Prince Charlie" in full each time for the sake of newbies and others may have some suggestions before it went to print, but you've provided a thoughtful and kind description. I'm impressed.

[Taskr]

It was a end-of-a-long-day writing. Will review back at origin

[shamrock715]

I agree on several points made by different people. To Hector's point in some ways I can see how it can feel unwelcoming to some BUT I also believe that is due to the many differing opinions that some of the people have and the way some people express an opinion can come off as "my way or the highway" if they are that set in their beliefs on the matter. That being said I agree also that it has to be taken not as a knock, but a difference of opinion.

I've been part of many different forums, threads, Facebook pages, etc. that are both good and bad. I've found that some are more welcoming than others and some are for a very specific demographic that you may not be part of. This forum in particular I find to be very helpful and insightful and while there may be correcting of what is what and opinions on what people like and don't like, all in all it seems pretty friendly to me. If you want to see some really terrible forums, join a motorcycle or exercise forum. I guarantee on a motorcycle forum there will be daily arguments on why foreign bikes are crap, why Harleys are the best & why people who drive cars (cagers as I found out they are called) aren't free. Exercise forums are even worse because no matter what exercise you do or how you lift weights you are doing it wrong and someone always has a better way.

Point being when you join any niche group (which kilt wearers are most certainly a niche group), you will always get many differing opinions and feelings. Some opinions and feelings stronger than others but short of being downright rude or disrespectful, I believe that's what makes most forums interesting and fun. If everyone in a forum was just like me, it what getting pretty boring pretty damn quick.

Of course this is just in my humble opinion.

Matt

[Baeau]

I agree on several points made by different people. To Hector's point in some ways I can see how it can feel unwelcoming to some BUT I also believe that is due to the many differing opinions that some of the people have and the way some people express an opinion can come off as "my way or the highway" if they are that set in their beliefs on the matter. That being said I agree also that it has to be taken not as a knock, but a difference of opinion.

I've been part of many different forums, threads, Facebook pages, etc. that are both good and bad. I've found that some are more welcoming than others and some are for a very specific demographic that you may not be part of. This forum in particular I find to be very helpful and insightful and while there may be correcting of what is what and opinions on what people like and don't like, all in all it seems pretty friendly to me. If you want to see some really terrible forums, join a motorcycle or exercise forum. I guarantee on a motorcycle forum there will be daily arguments on why foreign bikes are crap, why Harleys are the best & why people who drive cars (cagers as I found out they are called) aren't free. Exercise forums are even worse because no matter what exercise you do or how you lift weights you are doing it wrong and someone always has a better way.

Point being when you join any niche group (which kilt wearers are most certainly a niche group), you will always get many differing opinions and feelings. Some opinions and feelings stronger than others but short of being downright rude or disrespectful, I believe that's what makes most forums interesting and fun. If everyone in a forum was just like me, it what getting pretty boring pretty damn quick.

Of course this is just in my humble opinion.

Matt

As I have put:
"Also, with 20,815 (number updated) members, how many different ideas / opinions / comments on any given subject are out there? If a ship was out at sea, with that many Captains, they could never agree on which way to go."