Double-breasted jackets?

[Arlen]

Mod hat off:
It's odd to hear you refer to them as 'waiter's jackets' when many of the ones shown here are well made, fully formal jackets of good cuts and good fabric.
There are many people on here who would find a well-tailored velvet doublet to be 'over the top' or even flamboyant.
I suppose everyone has their own taste and their own style, but I do wonder which particular jackets you find so, well. cheap looking?

[JSFMACLJR]

Arlen,
The jacket CMcG showed is so cheap looking that it defies any other description, for "waiters jacket" suits it perfectly. From the photo one can tell that the fabric is inferior. From the lapels one can tell it was not intended for gentlemen's evening dress, because they are cloth lapels and not silken.

Keep your mod hat off: what do you mean when you write "fully formal"? Says who? The mall formal rental shop? Are you sure the cut is good? They look very poorly cut, to me actually. Good fabric? Compared to what, burlap? If you all like wearing cheap ugly clothes, go right ahead. I'll stick to my silk velvets and tartans and fine fabrics in the "over the top" and flamboyant" bespoke styles that have come to represent the best of Highland dress by those who know about such things, and--frankly--by those with style and good taste.

[CMcG]

The jacket CMcG showed is so cheap looking that it defies any other description, for "waiters jacket" suits it perfectly. From the photo one can tell that the fabric is inferior. From the lapels one can tell it was not intended for gentlemen's evening dress, because they are cloth lapels and not silken.

<snip>

The jacket I posted does look a little strange perhaps but, as I mentioned in my post, I had to adjust the photo settings. It was originally too dark and didn't show the double-breastedness clearly enough, so I changed the contrast, saturation, etc. I assure you JSFMACLJR, the fabric is actually quite nice and I don't see what is wrong with the cut; the lack of satin lapels just means it was designed for less dressy occasions.

Spencer jackets were in style for a time in the 1980s, so it is possible to find rather nice ones in vintage stores. I concede that the jacket I posted is not historical or traditional highland attire but I have seen members of the forum wear similar (though not double-breasted) jackets with a kilt and look smashing.

[KD Burke]

If you all like wearing cheap ugly clothes, go right ahead. I'll stick to my silk velvets and tartans and fine fabrics in the "over the top" and flamboyant" bespoke styles that have come to represent the best of Highland dress by those who know about such things, and--frankly--by those with style and good taste.

If I may be so bold as to point out that taste is a matter of opinion. There is no final arbiter and gentlemen may reasonably disagree.

I might also point out that it is nigh unto impossible to ascertain from a low resolution digital photo the weight, texture, color, cut or quality of a piece of clothing.

While I can appreciate fine tailoring and bespoke garments, I (and I suspect the majority of XMarkers) are financially ill-equipped to have each and every garment we own cut and stitched by a single tailor to our exact measurements. Most of us are trying to present as creditable appearance as may be managed on the funds we have available; hence the frequent posts on DIY and modifying existing garments.

While I have often solicited the opinions of others on purchases or projects I was contemplating, I did so in anticipation of useful advice.

The topic is "Double-breasted Jackets." If you care to share constructive opinion on the sutability of such jackets with a kilt, by all means do so. However I would ask that you refrain from insulting remarks such as "cheap" and "ugly."

KD
:ootd:

[Arlen]

Arlen,
The jacket CMcG showed is so cheap looking that it defies any other description, for "waiters jacket" suits it perfectly. From the photo one can tell that the fabric is inferior. From the lapels one can tell it was not intended for gentlemen's evening dress, because they are cloth lapels and not silken.

Keep your mod hat off: what do you mean when you write "fully formal"? Says who? The mall formal rental shop? Are you sure the cut is good? They look very poorly cut, to me actually. Good fabric? Compared to what, burlap? If you all like wearing cheap ugly clothes, go right ahead. I'll stick to my silk velvets and tartans and fine fabrics in the "over the top" and flamboyant" bespoke styles that have come to represent the best of Highland dress by those who know about such things, and--frankly--by those with style and good taste.

Well, keeping the mod hat off:

Your opinion is certainly fair enough.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of velvet and brocade myself and have absolutely nothing against your personal tastes or anyone else's. My comments on some peoples opinions were neither my own opinions nor directed at you.
And while I certainly don't like jackets made from cheap materials or with bad cuts, I try not to judge a garment from a bad picture. I try to trust that the gent in question wouldn't have bought it if it looked bad in real life.

I don't get a lot of chances to wear my brocade waistcoat or inverness cape or the like.
Likewise, after getting tired of how badly the standard Prince Charlie or Montrose looked on me I saved up and had a Prince Charlie custom fitted. Even with the best fabric and careful tailoring I still looked terrible in it. It's not a cut for everyone.
When I went for a double breasted jacket (After having seen quite a few in paintings and block prints from the early 1800's onwards) I found it suited my height and build very well. As it did the gents and such pictures.


As far as fully formal, I go by what I have seen in historical fact to have been considered fully formal and by what I was taught by a Grandfather who was an officer and a stickler about being well groomed, wearing the best quality and cut and being correctly dressed for the occasion.
Nor do I simply go by what one individual tells me they think is appropriate or what the local shop tells me.

Perhaps you could have simply stated that some of the jackets posted looked to be of poorer quality and cut and that you didn't think they'd be appropriate for Highland Wear. In my experience I find that making unfavourable comparisons often comes off more insulting than discerning.

[JSFMACLJR]

If I may be so bold as to point out that taste is a matter of opinion. There is no final arbiter and gentlemen may reasonably disagree.

I might also point out that it is nigh unto impossible to ascertain from a low resolution digital photo the weight, texture, color, cut or quality of a piece of clothing.

While I can appreciate fine tailoring and bespoke garments, I (and I suspect the majority of XMarkers) are financially ill-equipped to have each and every garment we own cut and stitched by a single tailor to our exact measurements. Most of us are trying to present as creditable appearance as may be managed on the funds we have available; hence the frequent posts on DIY and modifying existing garments.

While I have often solicited the opinions of others on purchases or projects I was contemplating, I did so in anticipation of useful advice.

The topic is "Double-breasted Jackets." If you care to share constructive opinion on the sutability of such jackets with a kilt, by all means do so. However I would ask that you refrain from insulting remarks such as "cheap" and "ugly."
KD
:ootd:

Well, I see little reason from refraining to call a spade a spade. The remarks weren't intended to be insulting; I was voicing a strident opinion. The jackets look cheap, and I think they look ugly.

I have nothing against DIY projects. I have seen some amazing examples of jackets made by members of this Forum, and I am jealous that I do not have the skills to do such things myself. I do not like, though, the use of shoddy looking pseudo formal jackets that really are not considered "correct" by most standards being passed off as suitable for Highland dress. Why demean a beautiful and elegant form of dress by wearing costumes? The double breasted jackets shown in this thread by Arlen and CMcG have no place in the wardrobes of the well-dressed Highland gentleman, and instead of being either historical or traditional are neither.

[davidlpope]

I bought a double-breasted, short waisted jacket last year that I have yet to wear. It is vintage circa 1980s and I need to have it altered by replacing the giant shoulder pads with something more manageable and perhaps swapping the buttons with some shinier ones. Or perhaps I should sell it because it is just a bit too big and I already have a single-breasted Spencer jacket with notch style satin lapels...

Please excuse the photo editing, I had to adjust the contrast to show the details of the jacket: double-breasted with single button closure (one button inside matched with the visible one outside), black wool, no tails, plain peak lapel (no satin).


What does the rabble think?

Without meaning any offense, I honestly think it will look like a truncated double-breasted suit jacket from the 1980s that you are wearing with a kilt, rather than a coatee or doublet that was designed to be worn with a kilt on formal occasions. If you attend formal highland events I think it will look out of place. If you don't attend formal highland events then I can't see a need for formal highland attire.

Cordially,

David

[Arlen]

Well, I see little reason from refraining to call a spade a spade. The remarks weren't intended to be insulting; I was voicing a strident opinion. The jackets look cheap, and I think they look ugly.

I have nothing against DIY projects. I have seen some amazing examples of jackets made by members of this Forum, and I am jealous that I do not have the skills to do such things myself. I do not like, though, the use of shoddy looking pseudo formal jackets that really are not considered "correct" by most standards being passed off as suitable for Highland dress. Why demean a beautiful and elegant form of dress by wearing costumes? The double breasted jackets shown in this thread by Arlen and CMcG have no place in the wardrobes of the well-dressed Highland gentleman, and instead of being either historical or traditional are neither.

Well, I can see that on this matter we will have to agree to disagree. So long as we are both happy with our own modes of dress, that's all that matters.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I think I'd have to agree with both Sandy and Arlen-- at first blush this does rather look like a waiters jacket. Likewise, I think that the ordinary Prince Charlie coatee really isn't the best jacket for the barrel-chested, broad of hip, or ample-tummied gentleman. And, as has been noted by others, about half of the Prince Charlie coatees worn today do not fit as they should. Most are too short in the body with the result that they gap at the front and sides, exposing the shirt and top of the kilt. Which just looks bad.

The fact that CMcG bought this jacket a year ago, and still hasn't gotten around to wearing it with the kilt, tells me that somewhere inside of him there is a little voice saying "don't do it". Now why that voice of caution keeps speaking out, I don't know. I'd like to think that it is his innate sense of sartorial good taste, so I'll leave it at that.

On a gentleman with the figure of a slim hipped fashion model this jacket would probably work, even with the 1950's Ricky Ricardo Cuban band leader shoulder pads left in place. On someone with a fuller figure (or a large gut) this would probably not look as flattering. And why is that? Well, the jacket in question was designed to be worn with trousers which, being long and dark, tend to make the wearer look taller, thinner, and (because of the shoulder pads) broader through the shoulders (which de-emphasizes the waist). It will also look dreadful if worn unbuttoned as it will flap around in a most untidy way.

Unfortunately a kilt has none of the virtues of trousers when it comes to making a man look taller, or slimmer. Thus, as Arlen has pointed out, one has be careful in choosing the style of jacket-- especially a formal jacket-- to wear with the kilt, to make sure that it compliments his physical shape. Someone as tall and slender as Skauwt will always look the biz in a PC; someone with a blockier build-- like Arlen-- needs a different cut of jacket to look his best.

My opinion is that while this jacket would probably look alright with proper trews, it is unlikely that it will look anywhere near as nice with a kilt.

CMcG, heed that inner voice.

[Arlen]

Just for historical reference on the issue of Regency dress:
Here are some images in regards to similarly cut jackets. I would be altering the jacket along very similar lines to these.







While I am sure I will make no Mr. Brummell, I feel that after a little work it'll be more than acceptable.
I will have a trawl through my books in the coming weeks and try to find some of the images of Highland gents in double breasted jackets from the 1800's. (I may have to have my father check some of my books back in Scotland.)




Also, as far as historical precedent goes, I doubt most people today would consider a jacket this cut or lenth remotely suitable highland attire, and yet John Brown obviously did.