The Scots Who Left

[MacSpadger]

I must have missed the 'part three' you are referring to. For anyone to say that not many Scots immigrants settled in the south is a gross error. HUGE numbers of Scots and Scots-Irish settled in the south. There are more people in North Carolina with Scots surnames than in all of Scotland. The Scots were a major part of southern and hill country history and were responsible for settling the areas of Tenn, W. Va, Ark, Miss and on into the west. I'm sorry I missed that one or I would have set the record straight right away. Just a quick scan of the officers of the Confederacy would correct that misconception right away.

I think that this is the part referred to;

It was certainly true that some historic connections could be traced in pockets of North Carolina back to 18th-century Highland emigration. But, even if this old experience was historically renowned, it was very much an exception rather than the rule. The Scottish societies of recent times in the South may indeed be replete with Scottish names but their ancestral connection is mainly with Ireland rather than Scotland. The South attracted large numbers of Ulster Scots, whose Lowland Scots ancestors had settled in the north of Ireland in the 17th century. It is mainly their descendants, friends and families who now flock in large numbers to Highland Games and clan societies in the southern states. Significantly, when the first Grandfather Mountain Highland Games were held on 19 August, 1956 (the anniversary of the raising of the Jacobite standard at Glenfinnan in 1745), the location was MacRae Meadows in the heart of Ulster-Scots territory. The Cape Fear area, where Highland immigrants had actually settled, was thought too flat and not sufficiently authentic to represent the romantic mountain country of bonnie Scotland.

There's a fair bit of follow on writing on the Southern States, but the paragraph above sums up the gist of Mr Devine's hypothesis.

[Jock Scot]

I quite accept that unless you have experience of a situation it is very difficult, on occasion, to understand another point of view and I think sensible discussion, such as we are having here, does highlight the problem to all, makes us aware of it and hopefully makes us ask ourselves what is really being said. Inevitably we are bound to misunderstand all too often.

This "playing at being a Scot" is just a turn of phrase that the Scots use and should be regarded as nothing more. Although, as we now know, it does seem to rankle with some outwith Scotland.

It highlights a problem that I have seen on this website more than a few times and I think having a couple of UK mods to interpret has helped here. I think that on the whole the use of words (not including expletives) is far more robust in the UK and even more so in Scotland and whilst that is not even noticed here in the UK, it most obviously is when others(apart from Australians!!!!) outwith the UK, read what we say, the misunderstandings then start to appear. It is a same words different emphasis of meaning situation.

I have found that on this website that has mainly a North American membership that I really have to choose my words extremely carefully to avoid misunderstandings, the ire of the readers and the wrath of the mods. Hence my oft seen editing of my posts. Fair enough, but if I was writing to someone in the UK I would use half the words and different ones that I use here and cause no offence whatsoever.

Also added to that, on this site, there does seem to be an almost a slavish wish to spilt hairs over such minute details that rightly or wrongly I put it down to trying to grasp at straws in justifying whatever it is you are trying to do. Take the dreaded "white hose" discussion. I have almost given up trying to dress up what I say for the international community on this subject, but new members do deserve a reasonable answer to their reasonable question. My honest and natural answer to anyone in the UK would be: "if they are all you have, wear them, if you like them then wear them, if you don't like them then don't wear them". If I answered like that here I would be accused of being blunt etc.etc.etc.etc................well alright, I am accused of that anyway!

So I am not saying I am(we are) right, you are wrong by any means, but likewise you outwith the UK need to understand that more often than not no offence is intended, we just phrase and understand things differently, that is all and do not necessarily mean what you think it means! It is a worldwide problem that the Internet highlights perfectly, I suggest.

[Phil]

It highlights a problem that I have seen on this website more than a few times and I think having a couple of UK mods to interpret has helped here. I think that on the whole the use of words (not including expletives) is far more robust in the UK and even more so in Scotland and whilst that is not even noticed here, it most obviously is when others(apart from Australians!!!!) outwith the UK, read what we say do the misunderstanding start to appear. It is a same words different emphasis of meaning situation.

I have found that on this website that has mainly a North American membership that I really have to choose my words extremely carefully to avoid misunderstandings and the ire of the mods. Hence my oft seen editing of my posts. Fair enough, but if I was writing to someone in the UK I would use half the words and different ones that I use here and cause no offence whatsoever.

Oscar Wilde wrote in 1887 "We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language." so it is nothing new. I have been similarly censured by the transatlantic mods for describing an individual as a "bampot", here quite a harmless jibe but misconstrued by them nevertheless. So I have to concur with your sentiments.

[Foxgun Tom]

Sorry for going off topic! Jock, this has to be one of the most accurate posts ever, on X marks the Scot!

We all share common bonds on the way we dress, sometime's culture, history and off course language on this forum. Its ironic that at times the very same lanuage and its meanings are lost or misunderstood!

All the best

Tom

I quite accept that unless you have experience of a situation it is very difficult, on occasion, to understand another point of view and I think sensible discussion, such as we are having here, does highlight the problem to all, makes us aware of it and hopefully makes us ask ourselves what is really being said. Inevitably we are bound to misunderstand all too often.

This "playing at being a Scot" is just a turn a phrase that the Scots use and should be regarded as nothing more. Although, as we now know, it does seem to rankle with some outwith Scotland.

It highlights a problem that I have seen on this website more than a few times and I think having a couple of UK mods to interpret has helped here. I think that on the whole the use of words (not including expletives) is far more robust in the UK and even more so in Scotland and whilst that is not even noticed here in the UK, it most obviously is when others(apart from Australians!!!!) outwith the UK, read what we say do the misunderstanding start to appear. It is a same words different emphasis of meaning situation.

I have found that on this website that has mainly a North American membership that I really have to choose my words extremely carefully to avoid misunderstandings, the ire of the readers and of the mods. Hence my oft seen editing of my posts. Fair enough, but if I was writing to someone in the UK I would use half the words and different ones that I use here and cause no offence whatsoever.

Also added to that, on this site, there does seem to be an almost a slavish wish to spilt hairs over such minute details that rightly or wrongly I put it down to trying to grasp at straws in justifying whatever it is you are trying to do. Take the dreaded "white hose" discussion. I have almost given up trying to dress up what I say for the international community on this subject, but new members do deserve a reasonable answer to their reasonable question. My honest and natural answer to anyone in the UK would be "if they are all you have, wear them, if you like them then wear them, if you don't like them then don't wear them". If I answered like that here I would be accused of being blunt etc.etc.etc.etc................well alright, I am accused of that anyway!

So I am not saying I am(we are) right you are wrong by any means, but likewise you outwith the UK need to understand that more often than not no offence is intended, we just phrase and understand things differently, that is all and do not necessarily mean what you think it means! It is a worldwide problem that the Internet highlights perfectly, I suggest.

[MacBean]

...This "playing at being a Scot" is just a turn of phrase that the Scots use and should be regarded as nothing more. Although, as we now know, it does seem to rankle with some outwith Scotland.

I've taken this thought in and mulled it over for some months. There is a lot of truth in it, I think. I do play at being a Scot. Anything else makes no sense, for my various Scottish ancestors all came over in the 1600s and 1700s.

and yet...I still feel a link with Scots. Not the land, perhaps not the culture really, but the genetic tendencies perhaps. I'm grasping at straws, for I don't really know. I don't like Scots more than other people (and I've lived in many countries and travelled in more), so it is not a romantic yearning. But as I come to understand myself more fully, I see traits that I can only associate with Scots.

And perhaps the reason Jock doesn't understand this, is that he doesn't share that genetic strain. It's an old argument, nature or nuture. My mother and brother weigh heavily on everything being genetic. I'm not so sure; an interesting unanswerable question.

[Gael Ridire]

“In all of us there is a hunger marrow deep to know our heritage - to know who we are and where we came from. Without this enriching knowledge there is a hallow yearning. No matter what our attainments in life, there is still a vacuum, an emptiness, and the most disquieting loneliness.”

Alex Haley: author of ROOTS

I find this statement so true.

[Dale-of-Cedars]

“In all of us there is a hunger marrow deep to know our heritage - to know who we are and where we came from. Without this enriching knowledge there is a hallow yearning. No matter what our attainments in life, there is still a vacuum, an emptiness, and the most disquieting loneliness.”

Alex Haley: author of ROOTS

I find this statement so true.

Seconded.
Being adopted, and not knowing my roots until I met my mother in my 40's, it was a revelation that I had deep Celtic roots; Glasgow Scots great-grandparents on one side, and Irish family via Montreal on the other.

[Downunder Kilt]

In post 60 Jock mentioned the misunderstanding of words used by peoples of different countries.

I have two examples that may show this,

1. Many times I have heard and seen the phrase fanny pack or fanny bag and I realise that it is a bag you wear around your waist to carry keys, wallets or whatever you fancy. If you were in Australia and you went up to a lady wearing one of these packs and commented about it, in whatever way and you use the term fanny when describing it, you may very well find yourself being called a pervert and having to fight your way out of the situation. In Australia in does not mean bum, try the other side of the anatomy, same height.

2. Only today one of our TV shows titled Spicks and Specks, a fun type musical quiz show (also the name of a Bee Gees hit inthe 70's) attempted to have a app for it placed on the i phone. It was instantly censored in the USA as being a derogatory term to mexicans.

Guess the old term spick and span is no longer allowed either

One can easily see from the above that words mean hugely different things in different countries

[piperdbh]

In post 60 Jock mentioned the misunderstanding of words used by peoples of different countries.

"Jocking your bonnet" means something completely differen in some Caribbean nations, too.

One can easily see from the above that words mean hugely different things in different countries

[Bugbear]

Jock, I apologize for any misunderstandings of that nature I have had. I suppose there is a generation gap, as well, that may cause some confusion.