XMTS Motto

[MacWage]

</lurk>
. . . the poll does not mention a Latin (or Gaelic) phrase, the poll is for the motto in English

And the poll specifically lists the phrase "By Choice, Not by Blood."

Post 1 of thread, by Panache:

The phrase: “By Choice, Not Blood” , which in Latin would be “Per electum, non consanguinitam" has seemed popular.

This poll is rooted DIRECTLY in the thread about X Marks being a "clan." So is the one on the plant badge. BOTH came about IN THAT thread.
The Latin provided by Panache was ALSO from a discussion in that thread. These 2 polls is about making those suggestions "official."

The intent mentioned IN THAT THREAD was to have the slogan officially in LATIN (hence Jamie/Panache's suggestion). The poor phraseology (odd for Jamie), probably,is from using the "official translation" in the poll (so the non-Latin speakers, MOST of the posters) may be able to READ the THING! My understanding, as seemingly assumed by the VAST majority and based upon the previous discussion, is that the ACTUAL phrase will be:
“Per Electum, Non Consanguinitam" (By Choice, not -by- blood). The Latin has the "blood" in accusative, implying that the "per" (by) applies to BOTH the "electum" AND "consanguinitam," so it can be equally translated as "By Choice, Not Blood" OR "By Choice, Not By Blood" and uses a term for "blood" with the correct connotation of affiliation within a related family (what the "con" in front of a common "blood" term means), rather than the red stuff in your veins.

[turpin]

Post 1 of thread, by Panache:


This poll is rooted DIRECTLY in the thread about X Marks being a "clan." So is the one on the plant badge. BOTH came about IN THAT thread.
The Latin provided by Panache was ALSO from a discussion in that thread. These 2 polls is about making those suggestions "official."

The intent mentioned IN THAT THREAD was to have the slogan officially in LATIN (hence Jamie/Panache's suggestion). The poor phraseology (odd for Jamie), probably,is from using the "official translation" in the poll (so the non-Latin speakers, MOST of the posters) may be able to READ the THING! My understanding, as seemingly assumed by the VAST majority and based upon the previous discussion, is that the ACTUAL phrase will be:
“Per Electum, Non Consanguinitam" (By Choice, not -by- blood). The Latin has the "blood" in accusative, implying that the "per" (by) applies to BOTH the "electum" AND "consanguinitam," so it can be equally translated as "By Choice, Not Blood" OR "By Choice, Not By Blood" and uses a term for "blood" with the correct connotation of affiliation within a related family (what the "con" in front of a common "blood" term means), rather than the red stuff in your veins.

OK john, when you put it that way, I vote yes for the motto IN LATIN. BTW, what is the Correct, Equivalent Gaelic translation?

[Peter C.]

</lurk>
I'm diving into a kettle of fish--my first post on Xmarks is in a "political" discussion 8-o

I think, but am likely wrong, that some of the contention is based on an initial reaction to semantics. I know that many people reply to a post without reading follow up posts and that some of the argument *may* come from that practice. Here is why I believe that may be the case in some instances:

For my own part, my reaction to the initial post in which the English version of the motto was stated as "By Choice, Not by Blood" was negative. Semantically speaking, in English that does exclude blood-ties. While the argument is made that the motto is regarding membership in the forum rather than a statement on culture or heritage, the fact is that I joined the forum *because* it is for the education and support of a part of my cultural heritage. The fact that no one needs to claim a genealogical connection in order to participate in and/or celebrate that heritage is a plus. But the fact that Hamish is looked to so often for advice and opinion, and the fact that tanks are, in general, "the" kilt to aspire to, only reinforces the point that the culture and heritage *is* a part of this forum. I could not support the phrase "not by blood" as it does, semantically, exclude my genealogical ties to this heritage.

Panache's "clarification post," on the other hand, seems fine to me. "By Choice, not Blood" semantically only means that Blood is not an issue, and I can support that phrasing whole-heartedly. It does not exclude anyone, it only excludes an exclusionary tactic ;)

I realize that many people will point out that the Latin may be translated either way, but the two relevant (to me) points about that argument are:
1) wars have been fought over translations
2) the poll does not mention a Latin (or Gaelic) phrase, the poll is for the motto in English

And the poll specifically lists the phrase "By Choice, Not by Blood."

I understand that most people who support it won't see a difference between that and "By Choice, not Blood;" but I do. I understand that many people who oppose it won't see a difference, either; but I do. And I know that many people may see the poll as stated actually being for the phrase as "clarified" by Panache; but I have lived in this great land of ours, the US of A, for far too long not to realize that the letter of the law has more impact than the intent, and that what you *say* often has much more effect than what you mean.

I cannot, in good faith, vote 'yes' to "By Choice, Not by Blood" as the English phrasing quite clearly excludes genealogical ties, though I do recognize that not everyone will agree. I could enthusiastically endorse "By Choice, Not Blood," however, as it dispenses with the negative connotations, though evidently not everyone agrees.

But that's kind of the point. We are, after all, trying to make a choice ;)


Scott

<lurk>

First welcome to xmarks.

In the phrase "By Choice, not blood", the word "by" applies to both "choice" and "blood" so the phrase "By Choice, Not By Blood" has an extra unnecessary "By" but still means the same thing.
Like the phrase "I am going by car not bus", means the same as "I am going by car not by bus". The "by" in the second phrase is unnecessary.

The Latin can be translated into both because they both mean the same thing.

By Choice, Not Blood, does exclude genealogical ties because nobody has any genealogical ties to xmarksthescot.

Peter

[jordanjm]

I believe that we are here (participating in the forum) everyone for their own reasons, and we came to be here, each of us again for our own reasons, and we each bring something unique to the forum,

How about:

For My Own Reasons, In My Own Way

or

(Just to Be Funny)

This Space Left Intentionally Blank - Could Someone render that into Scots, Gaelic, Latin, and Jumble the various languages together, and we would have a really funny cool sounding, motto,

Do we really need a motto, plant badge, etc? Why try to force this whole group into a form which does not show the world wide reach? Why follow the forms of the Scottish Clans? The next step would be heraldry. Are we going to elect Armigers? I think we need to focus on how we are different from the Scottish Clans, not try to imitate them. I am not saying we are not a clan, just that we don't have to be a Scottish clan.

[Jock Scot]

How about:-"We are here because we are here"?

[sporranlegionaire]

Although it can't be changed, I think it's unfortunate that the overall forum title 'X Marks The Scot' still refers primarily to an association with Scotland, even though it is then clarified that the forums are open to anyone.
When I first found it, just randomly thumbing through websites, I almost passed it by as being a Scottish based 'closed shop'. That is, until I spent a few minutes with it and got the full picture.
Trying to base a punchy, to the point, motto on something which is not necessarily one thing or another, but both, is, I think trying to cover too many angles.
I see Xmarks as being very much a source of company, learning, humour and socialising for the individual kiltwearer. Whether you are Scottish, Irish, Welsh or whatever is not an issue, though something to personally celebrate, as I would celebrate being English. There are no doubt many website communities devoted solely to a clan, which are not going to be interested in my membership propositioning.
Xmarks has evolved into a forum for those whose common connection is simply the choice of the kilt as a garment.
What I'm trying to say, and I'm sorry - my 'O' level pass in English Language was 45 years ago - is basically that saying 'X Marks The Scot', and then, in a motto, saying it isn't, is sort of confusing.
I don't know what the answer is, but it all seems a bit tenuous having to explain in a few-worded motto what the forum's title should be saying in the first place.
IMHO maybe a hold should be placed on a motto rather than rush into it with the heat and joy of the moment. If there are some here who have very real feelings about picking EXACTLY the right words - then this might remain a permanently uncomfortable issue.
When a commercial company chooses a motto or slogan, it's usually one which succinctly sums up that company's particular qualities or aims. In advertising we used to call slogans 'strap lines', I don't know where that definition comes from, but the strap line was usually the standard sign off on an advert or brochure. A sort of punctuation mark. 'Best by far.' (parcel couriers). 'Our skill is to thrill' (switchback innovators), etc. To the point. Punchy. Impressing. Summing up.
That's surely how we should be progressing.
I know Xmarks isn't a commercial venture, but I think in this day and age the same rules apply. A simple message that hits home instantly. Of course, translating it into Latin doesn't help any, and I'm not sure how Latin verbage actually marries up with someone who simply wants to wear a kilt.
As we are all individuals here, and not necessarily connected in any family way other than being a widely dispersed 'family' of internet acquaintances,
personally, I would be a lot happier if reference to blood, lineage or heritage was dropped for a start.
Sorry if this has been arduous to plough through.
I've said my bit, worthless or not. I'm just bothered that this is all being rushed through like a brilliantly pertinent motto is needed to be in the mail tomorrow for an impatient client...no fail.
Can't we ease back a little?

[Paul Henry]

a wonderful response, thank you sporranlegionaire.

I'm here on the site because I like kilts, I like reading about stories from fellow members around the world,even if I don't post that often myself.

To be honest I don't really see the value of a latin motto indeed I even have difficulty seeing why we should have any sort of "strap line". We all are different, not just in our approach to kilt wearing, so trying to encompass all of that in a pithy line seems at the least pointless and at the best a waste of time.

just my thoughts!

[Jerry]

I voted yes. Personally I do not see why it excludes those with Scottish heritage. I do have Scottish ancestry on both sides of my family and I have no problem with the motto as it is. However, I can offer a couple of modifications. One that I like is:

"Brothers by choice, not blood"

Of course some will say that it excludes the ladies of Xmarks.

Another would be:

"Together by choice, not blood"

Also, from what I've read, not all clan members were blood relatives. People married into clans, and some became members just by "swearing their allegiance to the clan cheif". Of course, we do not swear allegiance to Hank or his second in command, Mike. But, we do, much an the adopted members of clans did, agree to abide by the rules and ideals of this group.

[Nick]

To be honest I don't really see the value of a latin motto

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. Rident stolidi verba Latina!







(Anything said in Latin sounds profound. Fools laugh at the Latin language!)

I'm still learning Latin, so any accomplished Latinists, please forgive any incorrect declensions and conjugations.

I think Latin is an excellent choice for the motto, and even though not many people can read it, it does tie in with the spirit of inclusiveness we're trying to go for here. Latin was once the universal language of Europe, something many people understood even if they didn't understand the other's vernacular. There are people from all over the world on XMarks, some of whom do not speak English as a first language. That's just my thoughts on it. I think gaelic is a good choice, too, but I'm partial to Latin.

Vade in pace,
Nick

[LadyGriffin]

How about:

"By Choice"


Does that not cover all of us?