XMTS Motto

[pwyll]

</lurk>
I'm diving into a kettle of fish--my first post on Xmarks is in a "political" discussion 8-o

I think, but am likely wrong, that some of the contention is based on an initial reaction to semantics. I know that many people reply to a post without reading follow up posts and that some of the argument *may* come from that practice. Here is why I believe that may be the case in some instances:

For my own part, my reaction to the initial post in which the English version of the motto was stated as "By Choice, Not by Blood" was negative. Semantically speaking, in English that does exclude blood-ties. While the argument is made that the motto is regarding membership in the forum rather than a statement on culture or heritage, the fact is that I joined the forum *because* it is for the education and support of a part of my cultural heritage. The fact that no one needs to claim a genealogical connection in order to participate in and/or celebrate that heritage is a plus. But the fact that Hamish is looked to so often for advice and opinion, and the fact that tanks are, in general, "the" kilt to aspire to, only reinforces the point that the culture and heritage *is* a part of this forum. I could not support the phrase "not by blood" as it does, semantically, exclude my genealogical ties to this heritage.

Panache's "clarification post," on the other hand, seems fine to me. "By Choice, not Blood" semantically only means that Blood is not an issue, and I can support that phrasing whole-heartedly. It does not exclude anyone, it only excludes an exclusionary tactic ;)

I realize that many people will point out that the Latin may be translated either way, but the two relevant (to me) points about that argument are:
1) wars have been fought over translations
2) the poll does not mention a Latin (or Gaelic) phrase, the poll is for the motto in English

And the poll specifically lists the phrase "By Choice, Not by Blood."

I understand that most people who support it won't see a difference between that and "By Choice, not Blood;" but I do. I understand that many people who oppose it won't see a difference, either; but I do. And I know that many people may see the poll as stated actually being for the phrase as "clarified" by Panache; but I have lived in this great land of ours, the US of A, for far too long not to realize that the letter of the law has more impact than the intent, and that what you *say* often has much more effect than what you mean.

I cannot, in good faith, vote 'yes' to "By Choice, Not by Blood" as the English phrasing quite clearly excludes genealogical ties, though I do recognize that not everyone will agree. I could enthusiastically endorse "By Choice, Not Blood," however, as it dispenses with the negative connotations, though evidently not everyone agrees.

But that's kind of the point. We are, after all, trying to make a choice ;)


Scott

<lurk>

[Abax]

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I think some people are missing the original point. The "choice" here isn't the choice to wear a kilt. Its the choice to participate in this forum, which some have likened to a "virtual clan."

Some people here. Ah-hah. Still happy with my vote, but must quote my favorite commentator Emily Litella: "Never mind . . . "

Abax

[Bob C]

I'd have voted for "Why in the world do we need a motto?" but I did not see it among the choices.

[emolas]

I don't recall who said it but :

"Friends are the family we choose for ourselves."

Traditional clans were related families. You were born to the clan by blood and had no choice in the matter. As far as XMTS, you CAN'T be born into or have blood-ties so you have to CHOOSE to be a member. We are a "family" (and therefore clan) made up of people who choose to be in this family. That's how I read the motto and feel it is very fitting considereng how one becomes a member of this "clan".

[MacWage]

</lurk>
. . . the poll does not mention a Latin (or Gaelic) phrase, the poll is for the motto in English

And the poll specifically lists the phrase "By Choice, Not by Blood."

Post 1 of thread, by Panache:

The phrase: “By Choice, Not Blood” , which in Latin would be “Per electum, non consanguinitam" has seemed popular.

This poll is rooted DIRECTLY in the thread about X Marks being a "clan." So is the one on the plant badge. BOTH came about IN THAT thread.
The Latin provided by Panache was ALSO from a discussion in that thread. These 2 polls is about making those suggestions "official."

The intent mentioned IN THAT THREAD was to have the slogan officially in LATIN (hence Jamie/Panache's suggestion). The poor phraseology (odd for Jamie), probably,is from using the "official translation" in the poll (so the non-Latin speakers, MOST of the posters) may be able to READ the THING! My understanding, as seemingly assumed by the VAST majority and based upon the previous discussion, is that the ACTUAL phrase will be:
“Per Electum, Non Consanguinitam" (By Choice, not -by- blood). The Latin has the "blood" in accusative, implying that the "per" (by) applies to BOTH the "electum" AND "consanguinitam," so it can be equally translated as "By Choice, Not Blood" OR "By Choice, Not By Blood" and uses a term for "blood" with the correct connotation of affiliation within a related family (what the "con" in front of a common "blood" term means), rather than the red stuff in your veins.

[turpin]

Post 1 of thread, by Panache:


This poll is rooted DIRECTLY in the thread about X Marks being a "clan." So is the one on the plant badge. BOTH came about IN THAT thread.
The Latin provided by Panache was ALSO from a discussion in that thread. These 2 polls is about making those suggestions "official."

The intent mentioned IN THAT THREAD was to have the slogan officially in LATIN (hence Jamie/Panache's suggestion). The poor phraseology (odd for Jamie), probably,is from using the "official translation" in the poll (so the non-Latin speakers, MOST of the posters) may be able to READ the THING! My understanding, as seemingly assumed by the VAST majority and based upon the previous discussion, is that the ACTUAL phrase will be:
“Per Electum, Non Consanguinitam" (By Choice, not -by- blood). The Latin has the "blood" in accusative, implying that the "per" (by) applies to BOTH the "electum" AND "consanguinitam," so it can be equally translated as "By Choice, Not Blood" OR "By Choice, Not By Blood" and uses a term for "blood" with the correct connotation of affiliation within a related family (what the "con" in front of a common "blood" term means), rather than the red stuff in your veins.

OK john, when you put it that way, I vote yes for the motto IN LATIN. BTW, what is the Correct, Equivalent Gaelic translation?

[Peter C.]

</lurk>
I'm diving into a kettle of fish--my first post on Xmarks is in a "political" discussion 8-o

I think, but am likely wrong, that some of the contention is based on an initial reaction to semantics. I know that many people reply to a post without reading follow up posts and that some of the argument *may* come from that practice. Here is why I believe that may be the case in some instances:

For my own part, my reaction to the initial post in which the English version of the motto was stated as "By Choice, Not by Blood" was negative. Semantically speaking, in English that does exclude blood-ties. While the argument is made that the motto is regarding membership in the forum rather than a statement on culture or heritage, the fact is that I joined the forum *because* it is for the education and support of a part of my cultural heritage. The fact that no one needs to claim a genealogical connection in order to participate in and/or celebrate that heritage is a plus. But the fact that Hamish is looked to so often for advice and opinion, and the fact that tanks are, in general, "the" kilt to aspire to, only reinforces the point that the culture and heritage *is* a part of this forum. I could not support the phrase "not by blood" as it does, semantically, exclude my genealogical ties to this heritage.

Panache's "clarification post," on the other hand, seems fine to me. "By Choice, not Blood" semantically only means that Blood is not an issue, and I can support that phrasing whole-heartedly. It does not exclude anyone, it only excludes an exclusionary tactic ;)

I realize that many people will point out that the Latin may be translated either way, but the two relevant (to me) points about that argument are:
1) wars have been fought over translations
2) the poll does not mention a Latin (or Gaelic) phrase, the poll is for the motto in English

And the poll specifically lists the phrase "By Choice, Not by Blood."

I understand that most people who support it won't see a difference between that and "By Choice, not Blood;" but I do. I understand that many people who oppose it won't see a difference, either; but I do. And I know that many people may see the poll as stated actually being for the phrase as "clarified" by Panache; but I have lived in this great land of ours, the US of A, for far too long not to realize that the letter of the law has more impact than the intent, and that what you *say* often has much more effect than what you mean.

I cannot, in good faith, vote 'yes' to "By Choice, Not by Blood" as the English phrasing quite clearly excludes genealogical ties, though I do recognize that not everyone will agree. I could enthusiastically endorse "By Choice, Not Blood," however, as it dispenses with the negative connotations, though evidently not everyone agrees.

But that's kind of the point. We are, after all, trying to make a choice ;)


Scott

<lurk>

First welcome to xmarks.

In the phrase "By Choice, not blood", the word "by" applies to both "choice" and "blood" so the phrase "By Choice, Not By Blood" has an extra unnecessary "By" but still means the same thing.
Like the phrase "I am going by car not bus", means the same as "I am going by car not by bus". The "by" in the second phrase is unnecessary.

The Latin can be translated into both because they both mean the same thing.

By Choice, Not Blood, does exclude genealogical ties because nobody has any genealogical ties to xmarksthescot.

Peter

[jordanjm]

I believe that we are here (participating in the forum) everyone for their own reasons, and we came to be here, each of us again for our own reasons, and we each bring something unique to the forum,

How about:

For My Own Reasons, In My Own Way

or

(Just to Be Funny)

This Space Left Intentionally Blank - Could Someone render that into Scots, Gaelic, Latin, and Jumble the various languages together, and we would have a really funny cool sounding, motto,

Do we really need a motto, plant badge, etc? Why try to force this whole group into a form which does not show the world wide reach? Why follow the forms of the Scottish Clans? The next step would be heraldry. Are we going to elect Armigers? I think we need to focus on how we are different from the Scottish Clans, not try to imitate them. I am not saying we are not a clan, just that we don't have to be a Scottish clan.

[Martin S]

I ... it eliminates those who do have a blood connection with things Scottish.

You have misunderstood; those with clan connexions have chosen to be loyal to that clan; those without have chosen to be individuals with a mind of their own.
(By the way, I believe that, historically, belonging to a clan did not necessarily imply any "blood" connexion).

Martin

[Jock Scot]

How about:-"We are here because we are here"?