Broad Scots / Lallans

[gilmore]

Good observation. One of the reasons I'm not particularly fond of Rabbi Burns is that, while he promoted common Scot by writing in dialect, he trashed other aspects of common Scottish life.

He had an agenda and very powerful allies. There was a vision of Scotland he had that he wanted to present to the world. He used his art to promote but the subject matter eradicated practices he disagreed with.

What were those?

[Archangel]

What were those?

I don't want to get too caught up in this as we would quickly be hitting taboo subjects.

Read Burn's Holy Fair (and other poems), he was trashing a particular group. His movement succeeded in changing some laws. Those people he satirized moved to the US and started the Great Awakening.

Back to the point. In his effort to standardize how the Scottish enlightenment wanted to present Scotland to the world, Burns and his cohorts forced this group out. This got rid of a unique part of Scottish culture and replaced it with his. This is what was said about standardizing Lallans, one particular group/area would dominate to the exclusion of others.

I like the concept of Holy Fairs and would like to have seen them continue but, hey, read the book Holy Fairs by Schmidt.

[slohairt]

Aye, faurin ane dialect o Lallans ower anither daesna hae tae mean exterminatin or repressin the ithers. It semplie means that this wad be the kynd uised for offeecial ettles an aiblins schuil curriculum.

Think on English, for ensaumple. It wis decided lang syne that certaint dialects o the Sooth East wad be promoted insteid o, say, the Yorkshire dialect/accent. This daesna mean this dialect/accent is unricht, just nae uised for things like newscasts.

[slohairt]

Lallans, or raither Ulster-Scots/Ullans, is an aw ah recognised leid o Northren Ireland an Ireland (Co.Donegal) as per the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

[Archangel]

Lallans, or raither Ulster-Scots/Ullans, is an aw ah recognised leid o Northren Ireland an Ireland (Co.Donegal) as per the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

okay, respectfully, you lost me before the parentheses. What is the first part saying?

[Mr. Kilt]

When P1M first joined the rabble I was quite confused trying to read his posts. Once I figured them out, however, I anxiously looked forward to reading anything he posted. His photo-vacations are incredible, and he's a credit to the group.

As for the English language...what can you really say about it when you can pronounce a word like "ghoti" as "fish".

[slohairt]

okay, respectfully, you lost me before the parentheses. What is the first part saying?

Lallans, or rather Ulster-Scots/Ullans, is also a recognised language of Northern Ireland and Ireland (Co. Donegal) as per the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

[macwilkin]

I don't want to get too caught up in this as we would quickly be hitting taboo subjects.

Read Burn's Holy Fair (and other poems), he was trashing a particular group. His movement succeeded in changing some laws. Those people he satirized moved to the US and started the Great Awakening.

Back to the point. In his effort to standardize how the Scottish enlightenment wanted to present Scotland to the world, Burns and his cohorts forced this group out. This got rid of a unique part of Scottish culture and replaced it with his. This is what was said about standardizing Lallans, one particular group/area would dominate to the exclusion of others.

I like the concept of Holy Fairs and would like to have seen them continue but, hey, read the book Holy Fairs by Schmidt.

Good observation. One of the reasons I'm not particularly fond of Rabbi Burns is that, while he promoted common Scot by writing in dialect, he trashed other aspects of common Scottish life.

He had an agenda and very powerful allies. There was a vision of Scotland he had that he wanted to present to the world. He used his art to promote but the subject matter eradicated practices he disagreed with.

Methinks you're blowing this a bit out of proportion. Burns was lampooning the "unholy" behaviour and hypocracy of some who attend Holy Fairs, much as he lampooned the hypocracy of church leaders, such as Deacon Willie Fisher, of the famous poem Holy Willie's Prayer. Just because Burns lampooned it doesn't mean he "eradicated" it. Burns "trashed" the hypocracy of the Kirk and many of its leaders, for behavior that he himself had been dragged before the court of session for.

I just read a review of Schmidt's book (via JSTOR) and the reviewer is quick to point out that the author does not say that the Holy Fairs and their attendees were the only ones responsible for the Great Awakening, btw. There were many folks, and not just Scottish Presbyterians, who made up the Evangelical movement of the mid 1700's. Covenanting Presbyterians were in the colonies long before Burns wrote The Holy Fair, and no doubt both the Holy Fair and the American brush arbor revival come from the conventicles of the Covenanters, so one can hardly blaim Burns and his supporters for running the Holy Fair crowd out of Scotland and to the colonies, which would be the independent American Republic by the time RB wrote the poem in 1785.

In terms of agenda, Burns and his supporters saw that traditional folksongs, poems, folklore, etc. were being quickly lost as Lowland Scots became "North Britons". Noted Scottish folksinger Ed Miller (who has a PhD in folklore, btw), believes that is is Burns' role as a folklorist that is his greatest contribution.

I can't imagine what the study of Scottish culture would be like without his works, so I'll leave you with a quote from the 19th century Scottish educator J.S. Blackie:

When Scotland forgets Robert Burns, then history will forget Scotland.

Todd

[Archangel]

Methinks you're blowing this a bit out of proportion. Burns was lampooning the "unholy" behaviour and hypocracy of some who attend Holy Fairs, much as he lampooned the hypocracy of church leaders, such as Deacon Willie Fisher, of the famous poem Holy Willie's Prayer. Just because Burns lampooned it doesn't mean he "eradicated" it. Burns "trashed" the hypocracy of the Kirk and many of its leaders, for behavior that he himself had been dragged before the court of session for.

I just read a review of Schmidt's book (via JSTOR) and the reviewer is quick to point out that the author does not say that the Holy Fairs and their attendees were the only ones responsible for the Great Awakening, btw. There were many folks, and not just Scottish Presbyterians, who made up the Evangelical movement of the mid 1700's. Covenanting Presbyterians were in the colonies long before Burns wrote The Holy Fair, and no doubt both the Holy Fair and the American brush arbor revival come from the conventicles of the Covenanters, so one can hardly blaim Burns and his supporters for running the Holy Fair crowd out of Scotland and to the colonies, which would be the independent American Republic by the time RB wrote the poem in 1785.

In terms of agenda, Burns and his supporters saw that traditional folksongs, poems, folklore, etc. were being quickly lost as Lowland Scots became "North Britons". Noted Scottish folksinger Ed Miller (who has a PhD in folklore, btw), believes that is is Burns' role as a folklorist that is his greatest contribution.

I can't imagine what the study of Scottish culture would be like without his works, so I'll leave you with a quote from the 19th century Scottish educator J.S. Blackie:

When Scotland forgets Robert Burns, then history will forget Scotland.

Todd

Respectfully, having read the book (and wrote the university honours history paper on the subject and got an A), there is more meat to my statement. However, I am caught in the position of making my responses brief and general to stay within the limitations of the mods.

I hope you can see that this line would become quite contentious pretty quickly. It would be bringing up religious practices, criticisms and outcomes. I was trying to avoid that.

Yes, I see Burns as important. I don't particularly appreciate his art but that's my taste. His satire is important, as is most social criticism. However, my point, which I hoped to line up with the thread's point, was that sometimes the cleansing/emphasizing/supporting of one group damages other groups that, perhaps, didn't deserve it.

[sjrapid]

As for the English language...what can you really say about it when you can pronounce a word like "ghoti" as "fish".

Ah yes, George Bernard Shaw, (who spent much time and effort on an entirely unsuccessful campaign to simplify English spelling).

From memory it's:

gh as in tough
o as in women
ti as in nation

Best regards