clan associations

[O'Callaghan]

Not a member of any clan, as I'm Irish.

The Irish surely had clans but, for some reason, they did not take a strong hold like the Scottish clans. The English saw to that. If one does some history checking, look for the Penal Laws against the Irish, and you'll see why many traditional things got lost. The clan system did not bounce back like the Scottish ones. The clans and communal way of life were destroyed by these Penal Laws.

In the case of the Callaghan clan, the chief himself, Connoghor O'Callaghan at that time, filed a suit in 1605 in an attempt to convert the clan lands to his own ownership. I use convert in the sense of fraudulent conversion, except that he was trying to do it legally through the courts. He failed, but partially succeeded, as the court granted the chief's lands to him, which would otherwise have passed differently from his personal lands, but didn't grant him the ordinary clan lands, which remained in the hands of his clansmen. All he achieved was to convert the descent of the chieftainship from tanistry to primogeniture. The court actually recognised the old system of land ownership, calling it 'custom time out of mind', but arguably didn't fully understand it.

Other clans weren't so lucky, as many chiefs in both Ireland and Scotland successfully converted the clan lands to their own ownership, turning their clansmen into tenants. This was made possible due to English law being adopted in Ireland and, ironically, by Scottish law being adopted in the Highlands. Scotland to this day has a legal system which is based on Roman civil law, totally different from England, but the highlanders formerly followed the legal system of Ireland, from which they originally came, and neither the English nor the Scottish system recognised communal ownership of land by a clan.

So you see, the chiefs were often to blame for the destruction of the clan system, by their own greed, taking advantage of the changes in legal systems. Not to ignore the Irish penal laws, which made things worse.

As for taking a strong hold, really the clan system died out in both places, but was revived in Scotland by people like Sir Walter Scott, for example.

[denmcdough]

Very good bit of history there! I enjoyed it.

Yes, greed was and is alive. Too bad the penal laws decimated the Irish. If one looks at the written text of those laws, you would be appalled by what you read. By today's standards, that would not be acceptable in a civilized country.

In Irish history ~ being taught in their schools today ~ they use the word genocide to describe their history under English rule, and they definitely wanted to break up the clan system.

Oh, and there were the Irish who went along with the English...had to save their own behind. Wonder what I'd do if in the same situation??

Food for thought! [/I]

[triolamj]

I'm Italian (Sicilian), Irish, and Danish in that order. Even though I represent for the Irish clan of McMahon of Thomond (mom's paternal grandmother) here in southeast Texas, and we have a "chief", I voted "NO". I usually sponsor and run an all-Irish table at the local highland games to provide hospitality to the Scots-Irish and any stray Irish that pass by. Maybe once DNA testing drops to a really affordable level and enough people get tested, we'll start forming more and more family name associations (we don't have septs, but we do have family groupings like O'Brien, McMahon, McKennedy based on descent). We even have a Standing Council of Irish Chieftains which included 2 roguish fraudsters. First pipes, then kilts, then caubeens, and now evil lairds: what other Scottish tradition are we going to pick up?

[Jack Daw]

I'm Italian (Sicilian), Irish, and Danish in that order. Even though I represent for the Irish clan of McMahon of Thomond (mom's paternal grandmother) here in southeast Texas, and we have a "chief", I voted "NO". I usually sponsor and run an all-Irish table at the local highland games to provide hospitality to the Scots-Irish and any stray Irish that pass by. Maybe once DNA testing drops to a really affordable level and enough people get tested, we'll start forming more and more family name associations (we don't have septs, but we do have family groupings like O'Brien, McMahon, McKennedy based on descent). We even have a Standing Council of Irish Chieftains which included 2 roguish fraudsters. First pipes, then kilts, then caubeens, and now evil lairds: what other Scottish tradition are we going to pick up?

Give up Guinness stout for Belhaven stout.

[Galician]

Wow, do the results so far mean that about 80% of the people on this board have Scottish ancestry?

[O'Callaghan]

Wow, do the results so far mean that about 80% of the people on this board have Scottish ancestry?

Probably not. Firstly, the 80% would be only of those who responded. Secondly, not all clans are Scottish, although there are ten times as many recognised Scottish clans as Irish ones (approximately 200 versus about 20).

However, I think another poll came out with 80% having celtic ancestry. Again, I don't suppose every member responded to that one. I don't suppose it's far wrong, though.

[RobertStewart]

I have been a member of Clan Stewart Society in America for almost a year now

[Andrew M. Stewart]

I'm a commisioner for The Stewart Society (Edinburgh)

[gordontaos]

As a member of Clan Macduff I get:
A membership card
A membership certificate
A Scottish cook book
Clan By Laws
Instructions on proper highland dress
Quarterly newsletter
Opportunity to post my business' discounts to clan members in the newsletter
One page of Clan MacDuff Tartan address labels
and a few other goodies, as well as annual meetings and a tour to scotland every 4 years that we can sign up for.

[cessna152towser]

Originally Posted by Paul.
Oh by the way... one thing I don't get is - there's a lot of clan society's per continent. Does this not conflict with the one, main, authentic worldwide (often Scottish-based) clan societies?

This has in the past been a problem with some of the lowland Scottish clans where there has been no chief for the past couple of hundred years, and indeed was why many of us here in Scotland were so cynical about the so-called gathering of the clans in Edinburgh in July 2009. However the answer is in our own hands to trace heirs to the old chiefs and have them formally recognised by the Lord Lyon, some lowland clans have done this in recent years and others are currently going through the process. Once there is a properly recognised hereditary Chief, various splinter groups will unite to support that head of family rather than appointing one of their own.
I can't be a member of my mother's clan as her surname is an Irish one, we have our own unofficial family group on Facebook, so instead I belong to and get involved with the clan bearing my father's surname, Clan Cunningham. I hosted a clan tent at the Muster of the Clans in Selkirk Scotland in September 2009 and assisted with the clan tent at Ventura Seaside Games in California in October 2009.