De-Anglicisation of Names

[slohairt]

Dia Dhuit Arís!

This is something else I should have wrote about awhile back. The Gaelic surname system reflects the gender of the bearer. This is much like Icelandic names, except they do not change with each succeeding generation.

The modern anglicised forms of Gaelic names represent only the male form. Gaelic surnames in their original form identify whether the bearer is a man, a single woman, or a married woman.

Example 1:
O'Donnell (anglicisation)
Ó Dónaill (male form) OH DOAN-ILL
Ní Dhónaill (female unmarried form) NEE GOAN-ILL
Uí Dhónaill (female married form) EE GOAN-ILL

Example 2:
MacMahon (anglicisation)
Mac Mathúna (male form) MAC MA-HOON-A
Nic Mhathúna (female unmarried form) NICK VA-HOON-A
Mhic Mhathúna (female married form) VICK VA-HOON-A

This system does not apply to Gaelic names that are not patronymics.

Hope this is interesting, especially for our female posters.

[gilmore]

If pronounced BOY-YAY, and of French/Norman-French origin, than yes I would say this is the etymology. If looking at an English source I would still say Bowyer "bowmaker." The French word for archer IS archer, though pronounced ARR-SHAY.

Pronunciation has nothing to do with it at this point in time. I have Boyer cousins who pronounce it 3 different ways within just one small middle Georgia county.

According to Surname Profiler, if it is found in the UK it is most likely to be of French origin:http://www.spatial-literacy.org/UCLn...y=GB&type=name

If found in the US, it is likely to be either that or a variant of Bayer/Bauer/Baier from Germany.

Surnames origins may provide some general clues, but if you want to know who your ancestors were, there really is no substitute for methodically documenting them going backward generation by generation, via a solid paper trail. DNA testing can help, but its use is more often for exclusionary purposes than inclusionary ones.

If one decides that one's patrilineal ancestors were Gaelic speakers despite all evidence to the contrary, there certainly is an abundance of those who will assist one in that fantasy. Purveyor of Scots and Irish dress, music, alcohol, travel agents, hoteliers, others in the hospitality industry, etc. have been making a living off those with more money than discernment for well over a century.

[gilmore]

Dia Dhuit, A Bill!

Holland: Yes, Holland is Irish. It also has nothing to do with the Netherlands!
It is an anglicisation of Ó hAoláin (OH HAIL-AWN) meaning "descended from Aolán." Aolán is a corruption of Faolán which means "little wolf" and would denote someone who is cunning. Occasionally it was anglicised as (O')Whelan, though this particular anglicisation usually refers to the name Ó Faoláin.

Other anglicisations include: O'He(a)lane, O'Hayllane, O'Hil(l)ane, O'Hylane, O'Heolane, O'Hoolan, O'Holane, O'Hollan(d), Heelan, Helen, Hillan(e), Holan, H(e)yland, Hiland, and Holand.

If you are of British descent and named Holland, it is far more likely that your patrilineal ancestors are of English origin than Irish. It is a surname of place name origin, likely from one of 3 location there in Essex, Lincolnshire and Lancashire. In 1881 most Hollands were in the English midlands. http://www.spatial-literacy.org/UCLn...y=GB&type=name

If you really want to know who your ancestors actually were, rather than who you would prefer them to have been, there really is no substitute for the laborious process of tracing them backward in time, one generation at a time, as did my Holland cousins.

[slohairt]

Before I decide to stop posting on this thread, I wish to reiterate something: The point of this thread was to provide the etymology of anglicised names of Gaelic origin.

British origin? What exactly is that? Technically speaking, there are no British people (unless you consider the ancient Britons). As a citizen of the sovereign Irish Republic (and given its turbulent history), I find your insinuation and equation of British and Irish to be borderline offensive. I can assure you, my other 4 000 000 countrymen would agree. Irish is as different to English as Russian to Italian.

Concerning Bill's post, you seem to conveniently forget that he stated his Holland ancestors came from Ireland. Why would you then suggest that his ancestors came from the English midlands? That makes little to no sense. There exists the slim possibility that they were English "planters" but the odds are against that. What he asked were the Irish origins of the name Holland, not the prevalence of an English surname of the same spelling!

As I stated before (and apparently must state again) in a previous post, I am simply informing people of the original Gaelic spelling of their name if one exists. For example, if your name is Smith, and you are descended from people from Ireland, there is a strong chance that your name is translated from Mac Gabhann. Is it possible it is from the English Smith? Possibly, but probably not.

If a Gaelic origin does not exist for a poster's name, I simply provide a transliteration or translation for amusement's sake. Nothing more. I am not trying to track down peoples ancestors. It would take more than your humble scribe and/or an English county search engine.

After writing this, I have changed my mind. All of this talk of ire(land) has indeed got my ire up. I undertook this thread for amusement and it is now far from amusing. I do not need to be insulted and refuted at every corner, so I will simply stop posting here.

Tá brón orm, mo charaí.

[starbkjrus]

Well this WAS an excellent thread. slohairt, thanks for taking it as far as you did.

Sometimes you just get someone with an attitude that has to spoil the fun

[David White]

Well this WAS an excellent thread. slohairt, thanks for taking it as far as you did.

Sometimes you just get someone with an attitude that has to spoil the fun

Thank you slohairt.

[gilmore]

Before I decide to stop posting on this thread, I wish to reiterate something: The point of this thread was to provide the etymology of anglicised names of Gaelic origin.

British origin? What exactly is that? Technically speaking, there are no British people (unless you consider the ancient Britons). As a citizen of the sovereign Irish Republic (and given its turbulent history), I find your insinuation and equation of British and Irish to be borderline offensive. I can assure you, my other 4 000 000 countrymen would agree. Irish is as different to English as Russian to Italian.

Concerning Bill's post, you seem to conveniently forget that he stated his Holland ancestors came from Ireland. Why would you then suggest that his ancestors came from the English midlands? That makes little to no sense. There exists the slim possibility that they were English "planters" but the odds are against that. What he asked were the Irish origins of the name Holland, not the prevalence of an English surname of the same spelling!

As I stated before (and apparently must state again) in a previous post, I am simply informing people of the original Gaelic spelling of their name if one exists. For example, if your name is Smith, and you are descended from people from Ireland, there is a strong chance that your name is translated from Mac Gabhann. Is it possible it is from the English Smith? Possibly, but probably not.

If a Gaelic origin does not exist for a poster's name, I simply provide a transliteration or translation for amusement's sake. Nothing more. I am not trying to track down peoples ancestors. It would take more than your humble scribe and/or an English county search engine.

After writing this, I have changed my mind. All of this talk of ire(land) has indeed got my ire up. I undertook this thread for amusement and it is now far from amusing. I do not need to be insulted and refuted at every corner, so I will simply stop posting here.

Tá brón orm, mo charaí.

I am sorry you allowed yourself to get worked up into a snit and decided to take your transliterations and translatoins and go home, but I stand by everything I said, with one possible exception.

If one is going to post in a forum such as this, one must expect inaccurate or misleading information to be corrected or added to, and i don't apologize for doing so.

As to the Boyers, I am a Boyer descendant, and my relatives and I have been researching this family for decades. I can provide authoritative sources for everything I said about it.

As to the Hollands, (and BTW it was Bill's wife, not Bill, who was said to be of Irish ancestry) my post did not refer to him at all, necessarily, if you will read it carefully, but to persons named Holland of Bristish ancestry. Perhaps I should have said "persons who ancestors came from the British Isles," since that includes " Great Britain, Ireland, & adjacent islands," according to Merriam-Webster. If you are unhappy with their inclusion of Ireland, I suggest you take that up with them.

I fee that it is important to point out that, despite your caveat that you were merely transliterating and translating names into Gaelic, some people, especially Americans, do not read it to mean that, but rather read it to mean that their surname, and hence their patrilineal ancestry, is indubitably of Gaelic origin, or has some familial, genetic, genealogical, biological or at least etymological connection to a Gaelic surname.

In fact this has happened here.

Being Irish and living in Canada, perhaps you are not aware that most Americans do not know who their great grandparents were and would be hard pressed to give all four of their grandparents' surnames. Instead, we decide who our forebears were based on our ever-changing momentary enthusiasms and dislikes, and perhaps because we are too lazy to do the genealogical research needed for certainty.

We are a Society for Creative Ethnicity.

For example, these days many more Americans say that they are of Irish descent than is mathematically possible. Of course in the 19th Century, public opinion was quite different, Irish immigrants were held in much lower esteem than today, and Americans who were indeed of Irish heritage often denied it and made up other ancestry for themselves.

It was similar for Italians in the 19th century, but after the "Godfather" movies of the 1970's, many Americans with no more claim to be Italian than to have a surname that ended with a vowel proudly proclaimed themselves sons of Italy.

Likewise, after the "Highlander" and "Braveheart" movies of the 90's a vogue for being of Scottish descent arose, although I hear it is on the wane.

I do not say that you were intentionally misleading people at all, but I do say that people are being mislead---often by themselves---into thinking that their ancestry is something other than what it is.

[macwilkin]

Gents,

Before this turns "personal", I would remind you of one of the forum rules:

Please try to be courteous to all members. Please treat others as you would like to be treated (unless you are a masochist, then treat all others as you would treat your Mom).

Civil discourse is one thing. Let's all step back and take a breather, please, or else the thread will be off to the penalty box.

Regards,

Todd

[slohairt]

Dia Dhuit!

If anyone is still interested in this topic, please feel free to PM me. I cannot guarantee I will respond immediately but I will do my best. I DO promise that I will treat you with the dignity and courtesy you deserve as a fellow forum member. I enjoy the special sense of community Xmarksthescot provides and do not want to see it sullied by cynicism and personal attacks.

Go raibh maith agat (thank-you)

P.S. Americans are some of the finest and most intelligent people I have met and deserve greater credit than they have been given here. Disparaging your fellow citizens within your own country is one thing, disparaging them to a foreigner such as myself within an international arena is shameful.

[Frank MacDuffy]

Thanks for posting as much as you have slohairt! It's been a very interesting (and relaxing) thing for me to read (especially in finals week!). Again, thank you for doing all that you have, this has been a MOST enjoyable thread!