Cheap formal wear?

[DWFII]

Actually, I buy quality as well.

Most of my eBay finds have been very good. The Sheriffmuir and Montrose doublets in particular. I am not so sure about the Royal Stewart Kilt I picked up with what I thought was a low bid. The last one was for charity anyway.

Yes, and wasn't it you that got that nice boar's head kilt pin too? I never saw it until it was posted here but since the boar is a MacSweeney animal (is that the correct term?) needless to say I was jealous.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Yep, for what I thought was going to have been a low bid.

Well, I may post it for sale on eBay US!

[Bugbear]

good phrase, Ted, good phrase.

If you only look at the price of something, or look at it's price first, it often translates into "I can't have that." If you look for what fits your wants and needs, then look at the price, it becomes a goal.

I feel uncomfortable paring something of high quality with something of lesser quality, but that is the only choice sometimes.
Ehh, what do I know... probably won't be at too many formal events in my life.

On the other hand, if you can take a jacket of one kind or another and alter it to look acceptable with a kilt, I have no idea why that would be looked down apon... The time and skill put into the conversion adds value.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Or a good quality kilt, sporran, doublet, etc. can end up in a thrift store on UK ebay! You can get a deal that way if you don't mind second hand. Besides, there is more status to old than new in UK dress.

[kiltedcarpenter]

I just finished reading this thread "uber formal on the cheap: dollar by dollar" and I couldn't help but think "why?"

**disclaimer - I am just interested in a discussion and I am no way discounting or belittling the need or want for cheap formal wear**

Cheap formal wear may be an oxymoron. If it is formal wear you should feel regal and dressed to impress. If you are using a waiters jacket or even a converted waiters jacket aren't you just posing in a costume? I remember in school in music class we teased mercilessly a boy who had a violin from Sears and Roebuck because it was just posing as a serious instrument.

Do you really fit in if you are in a waiters tux or are you just wearing a costume to pretend to fit in? Do you worry someone will know and not accept your formal wear as real formal wear even if no one mentions it? Something like "Poor guy he can't afford a real kilt jacket."

I work hard to wear my kilts so that they aren't costumes and in my mind a sportkilt or my PV USA kilt won't cut it for dress occasions because it isn't a tank. I love my USA kilt and wear it with a sweater or oxford shirt and maybe even a tie but it isn't one of my tanks and I don't pretend it is.

I don't intend this to be a condemnation of anyone who wears the other kinds of jackets and the like, I just want to start a discussion and see if what I think has any basis at all.

I am a little offended by the "posing in a costume" comment. Maybe I take it a bit personally, but it still bothers me. I am a carpenter and almost never wear a suit. Since being kilted, I have not had the occasion to attend a formal event, until my upcoming wedding. Having said earlier that I am a carpenter, I dont have the money to spend on a PC, knowing I will not use it that often. My future wife and I have decided on the " waiters jacket" and are having it tailored.

Also, I have a problem with the "sears and roebuck instrument". I made a violin from a kit and have had people play it and say it sounds as good as any other. It sounds like you are hung up on labels first and foremost.

"Do you really fit in if you are in a waiters tux or are you just wearing a costume to pretend to fit in? Do you worry someone will know and not accept your formal wear as real formal wear even if no one mentions it? Something like "Poor guy he can't afford a real kilt jacket.""

I find it a little arrogant to say "poor guy......." keeping in mind that not everyone has as much disposable income as others...

"I work hard to wear my kilts so that they aren't costumes and in my mind a sportkilt or my PV USA kilt won't cut it for dress occasions because it isn't a tank."

Gee, I wish I could afford a tank, but right now I cant. Does this mean I am wearing a costume by trying to look the best I can with what I have?


I'm sorry, but the comments come across to me as elitist and I am sorry if I have offended anyone

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

I keep forgetting to mention that "new" in Britain shows that you are not "old Highland". So, wearing old clothes, or second hand, looks as if you have been doing this for a while. Meaning the "highland inherited" is something which denoted that your family has been doing this for a while.

Despite the one comment about me wanting people to look like they escaped from a shortbread tin in another post, I am a little more giving about some things. One of which is how much your formal wear looks as if it were just purchased from Kinloch-Anderson.

When it comes to the "posing in costume", my attitude is that you have to steer from looking as if you just bought the outfit or escaped from a shortbread tin. On the other hand, you don't want to be in appropriate (e.g., wearing regular over the pictured calf socks v. kilt hose)


NO, you haven't offended me. On the other hand, I am curious as to why you haven't considered renting formal wear as you seem bothered by the concept or what people's opinion will be of your clothing?

[DWFII]

There must be some sort of middle ground in here somewhere. Personally, I don't think the distinction between manners and etiquette is all that significant. The definition of "manners" given above is a fair one and the example provided is very compelling but beyond that it gets more murky and, for me, misses the point altogether.

I think a better definition is that manners come from within and etiquette is an external codification of widely admired manners, formulated to make as many people feel comfortable as possible. To help people who might be a little "at sea" to feel more at ease--if you know some basic principles of etiquette, they will, in most cases, keep you from drinking from the fingerbowl.

On the other hand, no one should have to drink out of the fingerbowl even to make a guest seem less awkward. That the host does so indicates a generous spirit but it doesn't invalidate the gaff to begin with. Most conventions...etiquette included...are social "grease," if you will.

When it comes to kilts and highland dress, there are two points I think are important...first, it's all costume. That's why most of the books written about various styles of clothing have titles such as "Men's Costume in the 19th Century."

The second point is that whatever costume you wear, it makes things easier...socially...if you respect the costume and the traditions that inform it, and not try to put your own spin on it.

"The eye is not fooled"...this is a common saying in my line of work. Most people will know when the lintel is not square or a painting not hung straight. Even if they cannot put their finger on it, or articulate why, they will, on a subconscious level, feel a bit uneasy about something. This is a part of human nature that has its roots in our deepest instincts. From a time when a "wrongness" in the shadows might be a predator.

A person wearing a kilt well generates a whole lot less speculation and unease...because it fits our mental image of what looks right...than someone who is making it up as they go along. It doesn't have anything to do with "inclusion" or "exclusion" or "dirt under the fingernails." It has a lot to do with respect, and traditions, and putting others at ease. It can be just as unmannerly to flaunt the customs of your host as it is mannerly to put a guest at ease.

One last point...and I hope this is the most controversial point I make..I regret the impulse in our society to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. Whether it is elitism or not, there is such a thing as "good, better, best." It may be relative (for some) but it is real. And recognizing that fact is the only way to guarantee personal growth. No craftsman can move from apprentice to master without acknowledging that there is a standard of work that transcends his own. And that's true at every level...even the master's level.

If you think about it, the same thing applies to the most mundane aspects of everyday life...even kilts.

[Abax]

Whether it is elitism or not, there is such a thing as "good, better, best." It may be relative (for some) but it is real. And recognizing that fact is the only way to guarantee personal growth. No craftsman can move from apprentice to master without acknowledging that there is a standard of work that transcends his own. And that's true at every level...even the master's level.

Quite so. But I suspect successive generations - touched with a bit of cynicism - always believe standards are falling. I see it in my profession (whether it's real or not).

Offering encouragement to a child means the parent may not tell them right off that their finger painting is unremarkable. As you point out, you'll eventually have to be honest and communicate a standard if the artist is to advance. The standard, of course, is what we'll be discussing for a long time to come . . .

Abax

[DWFII]

Quite so. But I suspect successive generations - touched with a bit of cynicism - always believe standards are falling. I see it in my profession (whether it's real or not).

Offering encouragement to a child means the parent may not tell them right off that their finger painting is unremarkable. As you point out, you'll eventually have to be honest and communicate a standard if the artist is to advance. The standard, of course, is what we'll be discussing for a long time to come . . .

Abax

Not to get too far afield but I believe standards are falling. Techniques get lost, forgotten, or, in an excess of expediency, abandoned. And as they are lost the standards become ever more homogenized and marginalized.

I'm old fashioned, I admit it, but for me I would much rather aspire to do better than self-righteously defend what I know to be sub-par.

I was thinking about this whole business of waiters jackets and so forth after my last post and musing about why we wear kilts...

Someone on this forum (maybe several someones) posted a spirited defense of wearing kilts when many of us are neither Scots nor recently descended from Scots. The gist of it was that it is a way to honour our heritage, and by implication, although we may do it badly, it is a sign of respect.

I wonder whether one would feel comfortable wearing a cut-down waiters jacket to a audience with a clan chieftain? Or the fellow...Lord something or other...that approves tartans and all things Scottish?

More, I wonder if that Chieftain would feel that his customs and traditions...and maybe even person...were being respected if he knew the provenance of the jacket?

If there is a sizable number of native Scots who feel nothing but disdain for tourists gone all ga-ga over Scottish kitsch, they may well have a good reason when confronted by folks who feel it doesn't matter. Because even if, in the cosmic scheme of things, it really doesn't matter, it seems to me (personal opinion), nevertheless, a little disrespectful. And I'm not a native Scots.

[Mark Keeney]

I'm sorry if anything offended anyone. Please read the disclaimer I meant it:

"**disclaimer - I am just interested in a discussion and I am no way discounting or belittling the need or want for cheap formal wear**"

I'm not interested in judgements of anyone else, just how you personally feel when you wear what you wear.