A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)

[DWFII]

MOR,

I hope you'll take this in the spirit it is offered and not as ingenuous in any way...I like the way you think. You always have something to say and a way of saying it that makes me think and helps me to clarify my own POV. Of course it helps that I tend to agree with most of what you say and so far at least you don't seem to be disagreeing with me.

But I sincerely want to thank you for your contributions.

Besides which I accidentally "unsubscribed" to this thread and hoped that posting again would renew my subscription. And I'm closing in on that ever elusive 750 mark.

[gilmore]

I think it is disingenuous to portray someone in a false light, as you have done.

I suspect that if you go back 200 years you will find a similar pattern of social advancement in his family.

Setting aside any possible comment on the politics of the United States, you will notice that the gentleman referred to had the advantage of a first class education provided by his maternal grandparents. Beyond that, he took advantage of that education, and every political opportunity possible, to advance himself in society and in his chosen career.

In this regard I see no real difference between the current president of the United States and, say, former president Gerald Ford.

I don't think I have portrayed anyone in a false light. I set out the facts. Smokescreen?

If there is a pattern of social advancement his maternal family in the last 200 years (and I really don't know if there is) it would prove my point: it would have happened after they came to the US.

You are mistaken re: his education. He did attend a private college prepartory school in HI, but worked during the summers at Harvard Law School, and took advantage of a program there that offered scholarships to students who agreed to practice some form of public service law after graduation.

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

This is a small group of Americans who will be spending just one week in Scotland and running their own tent at the gathering in purported representation of the family name

Alex,

Having read your post, and further to our conversations on skype, which I continue to thoroughly enjoy; I can't but help agree with your feelings of seperation caused by this society / association / "clan society".

It also causes me a grand sense of embarrassment that the family name will have such controversary attached to it for all to see.

Its seems that pride, greed and a blurred sense of loyality has gotten the better of our American "kinsmen".

I trust / know that you will still wear the family tartan with pride, and that when approached by these individuals, you will make the feelings of not only yourself, but those of the antipodean dispora known to them also.

Regards

Phil C

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I don't think I have portrayed anyone in a false light.

The "false light" I was referring to was the way in which you conveyed the impression that he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps.

I set out the facts.

Vaguely at best, if at all.

Smokescreen?

No, thanks. I don't smoke.

If there is a pattern of social advancement his maternal family in the last 200 years (and I really don't know if there is) it would prove my point: it would have happened after they came to the US.

Why is it that people always assume that only "the poor, the tired, the wretched refuse, etc." moved to America? Pretty damned condescending, in my view. Unless, of course, you are trying to make some sort of obscure point about how unfair the entrenched social system is in Britain, and that only by moving to North America does a person have a chance of achieving his/her full potential. If that's the point you are trying to make, it can be refuted with four words: Richard Branson and Sean Connery. Both blokes made it to the top with a combination of intelligence, talent, and a lot of hard work. In Britain.

You are mistaken re: his education. He did attend a private college prepartory school in HI, but worked during the summers at Harvard Law School, and took advantage of a program there that offered scholarships to students who agreed to practice some form of public service law after graduation.

I am not the least bit mistaken about the president's educational background-- read what I wrote: He has a first class education (the foundation of which was paid for by his maternal grandparents) and he took full advantage of it to advance himself both socially and politically. Those are facts. That he worked summers, between terms, or nights handing out towels at the YMCA is neither here nor there. In the United States and Canada virtually all third level and graduate level students have some sort of "after school" job, if for no other reason than to beguile the tedium of being a student.

[gilmore]

... In the United States and Canada virtually all third level and graduate level students have some sort of "after school" job, if for no other reason than to beguile the tedium of being a student.

Where ever do you come up with your facts?

[Brandane]

"A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)" was the original title of this post. Sadly no other actual Scottish people seem able or willing to contribute so I will bow out now before the inevitable tide of opprobrium descends upon me. If anyone feels that this has been a one-sided discussion then that is probably because that is precisely the case.

Phil, your thread has certainly sparked all sorts of controversay.

I would just like to say the I am happy and proud to be a Scot and accept that our history is clouded by romantisism. I am also happy to be an Anderson and wear the tartan and the clan badge in honour of those that went before me.

As i've become older I more readily accept the views of others that may disagree with me on subjects such as those that you have raised. History is history however viewed, we have the chance to shape the future. Best wishes, Rob.

[Phil]

Thanks for your comments, peacekeeper83, Rob and others. Don't worry though, it is only this thread I think it best to bow out of. I love a good discussion with the best of them - must be the Irish in me! Would argue a black crow was white my mother used to say.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Where ever do you come up with your facts?

In this instance the US Department of Labor.

[slohairt]

Believe me, America is far from the classless egalitarian paradise you paint it in such romantic terms. Perhaps we Yanks aren't the only ones to buy into myths, eh?

And again, I feel you are being very unfair and making generalizations regarding all Americans and their attitudes towards clan chiefs. Like it or not, the Chief historically is the "father" of a clan, and therefore, is at least entitled to that respect. I respect my clan chief and his efforts to promote the clan's history.

And for the record, the only place I "bend the knee" is in church before and after the Eucharist.

T.

That's true, Todd. People from everywhere sometimes fall for the myths they or others perpetuate. Here's a story of something that happened to me years ago:

I used to work at a tourist information booth and one day a nice elderly Scottish lady came to the counter and asked where the closest Native Reservation was. I asked her why she wanted to go there. She replied she wanted to see some 'Red Indians' and hopefully witness some traditional ceremonies. Unfortunately, there were some, uh, heated political activities going on there at the time, so I had to dissuade her from going. I also had to explain that Reservations were not always nice places to visit and didn't exactly match up to the myth of Wild West movies. It was an awkward moment, to say the least.

[macwilkin]

That's true, Todd. People from everywhere sometimes fall for the myths they or others perpetuate. Here's a story of something that happened to me years ago:

I used to work at a tourist information booth and one day a nice elderly Scottish lady came to the counter and asked where the closest Native Reservation was. I asked her why she wanted to go there. She replied she wanted to see some 'Red Indians' and hopefully witness some traditional ceremonies. Unfortunately, there were some, uh, heated political activities going on there at the time, so I had to dissuade her from going. I also had to explain that Reservations were not always nice places to visit and didn't exactly match up to the myth of Wild West movies. It was an awkward moment, to say the least.

That wouldn't have been the Oka Crisis would it?

T.