Ribbons instead of pins, and such.

[Inchessi]

Okay, I have spent a bit of time trying to answer this question on my own.

A recent post should the Dress regulations for kilts as uniform. It was an informative post and worth reading. Two items come to mind as an after thought.

First, I noticed that some pictures showed a ribbon instead of a pin. Actually, I believe that all had two ribbons, one above the other instead of a clan pin. Is there a significance?

Second, I noticed some members here wear their pin next to their waist line. I am under the impression that it is worn low, close to the hem. I thought of the position as utilitarian, prevent the kilt from blowing up and exposing the wearer. I had also read that the reason behind the pin was that a soldier stood at post for inspection from the Queen. A wind blew his kilt and he did not waiver. The Queen saw his predicament and pinned her broach to his kilt, thus starting the pin. Is there an actual placement for the pin?

[ziggy]

I have heard the Queen Victoria story where she pinned the soldiers kilt, and that's where the tradition started. Generally I think that is why we pin it where we do; it is to help weigh the kilt a bit.

[ForresterModern]

Interesting how stories get started and turned into tradition and/or myth. I am not sure how accurate the Queen Victoria story is as regards tradtion, but for whatever reason the tradition has been to wear your kilt pin (of whatever style) bottom right of your front apron, a couple fingers in from the edge and a couple inches up from the selvedge, usually centered on a prominent stripe in the tartan to add visual accent. Military units have also used ribbons, often multiple at times, and usually worn them higher on the apron edge nearer the bottom of the fell and lined up vertically---another attractive option. Many here on the forum have experimented with alternative positioning and even angling of kilt pins, many with great success from an appearence standpoint, although I doubt these follow any particular tradition, merely personal preference. In addition there has been broad variation in tastes as to what can make up a kilt pin, also with some very artistic outcomes and colorful appearences. How traditional? who knows, and in many instances and people's minds, who cares. If it looks good, is not offensive, worn in good taste with your kilt, I doubt anyone would give you more than a second look, except in very formal or particular circumstances (weddings, uniforms and such). Although I am not a modernist by any means, neither am I a strict traditionalist, so I am wont to try some new things sometimes, and I like some of the newer suggestions, personally.

Jock or Mac might chime in here with the trads' opinion.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Basically the kilt pin has evolved from an actual pin used to hold the front apron in place, to a purely ornamental item. In the 1914 book "The Kilt", by Loudon MacQueen Douglas, he recommends a silver-mounted "claw foot" kilt pin for evening wear, and a large sliver "safety pin" (a blanket pin, actually) for day wear.

As far as placement is concerned, the lower you place the kilt pin, the less effective it is in preventing the kilt from billowing. I find that the kilt pin is most effective about a third of the way up from the hem of the kilt and, despite what many of the pundits have to say on the matter, on a really windy day I pin the front apron to the kilt. As long as you remember to unfasten the kilt pin before taking off your kilt, you are unlikely to sustain any damage.

[Richard]

Apparently so the story goes, after Queen Victoria put a pin in the kilt the Scottish regiment were so annoyed on have a pin through there tartan they sewed a ribbon instead of the pin.

[ziggy]

I find that the kilt pin is most effective about a third of the way up from the hem of the kilt and, despite what many of the pundits have to say on the matter, on a really windy day I pin the front apron to the kilt. As long as you remember to unfasten the kilt pin before taking off your kilt, you are unlikely to sustain any damage.

I will have to remember this, because I could see it being a useful tactic

[Bugbear]

Basically the kilt pin has evolved from an actual pin used to hold the front apron in place, to a purely ornamental item. In the 1914 book "The Kilt", by Loudon MacQueen Douglas, he recommends a silver-mounted "claw foot" kilt pin for evening wear, and a large sliver "safety pin" (a blanket pin, actually) for day wear.

As far as placement is concerned, the lower you place the kilt pin, the less effective it is in preventing the kilt from billowing. I find that the kilt pin is most effective about a third of the way up from the hem of the kilt and, despite what many of the pundits have to say on the matter, on a really windy day I pin the front apron to the kilt. As long as you remember to unfasten the kilt pin before taking off your kilt, you are unlikely to sustain any damage.

I had to ponder that for a while because I experienced difficulties with the apron hanging incorrectly when I pinned it through both aprons way back when I first started wearing the kilt. Here's the deal, it has been drilled into my head by traditionalists and non-traditionalists that the pin goes down toward the bottom of the apron. That does cause problems with the apron pulling as the legs move; though I don't know if it really does any dammage.

For pinning through both aprons, you are placing the pin much higher where there is much less movement of the top apron in relation to the underapron. You also have a third strap a short distance above the pin holding down the apron above the bend of the hip. This lets the bottom of the front apron move freely. Where as, if it is pinned at the bottom of the aprons, the wind can get behind the top apron above the pin and cause billowing. With the higher placement, whether pinned through both aprons or just the top, the bottom corner of the apron would probably flap up a bit, but that's really not an issue. It's kind of like a sail compared to a flag held out on a boom...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I had to ponder that for a while because I experienced difficulties with the apron hanging incorrectly when I pinned it through both aprons way back when I first started wearing the kilt. Here's the deal, it has been drilled into my head by traditionalists and non-traditionalists that the pin goes down toward the bottom of the apron. That does cause problems with the apron pulling as the legs move; though I don't know if it really does any dammage.

For pinning through both aprons, you are placing the pin much higher where there is much less movement of the top apron in relation to the underapron. You also have a third strap a short distance above the pin holding down the apron above the bend of the hip. This lets the bottom of the front apron move freely. Where as, if it is pinned at the bottom of the aprons, the wind can get behind the top apron above the pin and cause billowing. With the higher placement, whether pinned through both aprons or just the top, the bottom corner of the apron would probably flap up a bit, but that's really not an issue. It's kind of like a sail compared to a flag held out on a boom...

Yup... that's it in a cockleshell (to continue in a nautical theme...)

[Chukta]

The ribbon rosettes on the kilt apron are military and worn by the officers and NCO's of the regiment, only. They are also worn by the Pipe Major and Drum Major. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wore an embroidered panel with the rosettes attached to it. The Black Watch wore bows, as does the present Royal Regiment of Scotland.

[macwilkin]

The ribbon rosettes on the kilt apron are military and worn by the officers and NCO's of the regiment, only. They are also worn by the Pipe Major and Drum Major. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wore an embroidered panel with the rosettes attached to it. The Black Watch wore bows, as does the present Royal Regiment of Scotland.

And the Calagary Highlanders* of the Canadian Forces:

http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/tr.../kiltpanel.htm

*Affiliated unit of the old Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, now 5th Battalion, Royal Regiment of Scotland.

T.