Which tartan for Buie (Bowie)?

[ShaunMaxwell]

I'm trying to figure out the appropriate tartan for the Buie family (from Jura).

I've done a bit of reading and see that both the MacDonalds and the Grants list them as septs. On the Scottish Tartans Authority website, I found a Bowie tartan from 1990, and a Buie tartan from 1968, but I'm wondering which tartan would be the most "historically correct", knowing that that's a pretty loose term when dealing with tartans.

I'd appreciate any input, as I'm sure there are some amongst the rabble who will likely have an opinion.

[TecScot]

As you allude to, Tartan is a commercial subject. What you like is correct in the absence of uniform requirements. The MacDonalds and the Grants largely are a function of where your root connection is geographically. Little help in the absence of that information.

Wear what you like and look KILTED. You'll feel good.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

With all due respect to the above poster, I had somehow missed out on the fact that mankind had managed to invent time itself -- I was not aware that we were that advanced! Nor was I aware that we had the magical ability to make something true simply be believing it. (I guess all I need to do now is believe that I have a million dollars!)

If you are looking for actual information about the tartans, the Bowie tartan that is commercially available from Lochcarron is in fact a variation of MacDonald, probably because of the relations between the Bowies and MacDonald Clan. It's been in production since the 1960s but we don't really seem to know the origin. It has also been produced in a couple of different variations. It seems to be fairly accepted as a family tartan, most likely because it is readily available, if nothing else.

The Buie tartan recorded by the STA also dates to the 1960s and seems to have been designed by a gentleman of the surname in Atlanta, GA. Again, not much information on the origin is known but tartan researcher Tony Murray has suggested that, because the design is similar to the MacLaine of Lochbuie tartan, it may have been an intentional variation of that tartan based on the mistaken idea that the Buie family is somehow related to the LochBUIE MacLaines. This tartan is not in commercial production, so you'd have to have it custom woven if you wanted to wear it.

The MacDonald and Grant tartans are, of course, readily available. Generally in cases where the same surname is accepted by multiple clans you would need to know some geographical information about where your family in Scotland came from to get an idea of what the actual clan association may be. In the case of Bowie, according to the Clan Donald web site, those Bowies or Buies from Islay, Kintyre, and Jura are of Clan Donald.

The Clan Grant Society says this on their web site:

if your Bowie ancestors were from the northeast of Scotland, or Glenmoriston near Loch Ness, then they are associated with Clan Grant, if from the west of Scotland or the Islands, Clan MacDonald.

[macwilkin]

With all due respect to the above poster, I had somehow missed out on the fact that mankind had managed to invent time itself -- I was not aware that we were that advanced! Nor was I aware that we had the magical ability to make something true simply be believing it. (I guess all I need to do now is believe that I have a million dollars!)

If you are looking for actual information about the tartans, the Bowie tartan that is commercially available from Lochcarron is in fact a variation of MacDonald, probably because of the relations between the Bowies and MacDonald Clan. It's been in production since the 1960s but we don't really seem to know the origin. It has also been produced in a couple of different variations. It seems to be fairly accepted as a family tartan, most likely because it is readily available, if nothing else.

The Buie tartan recorded by the STA also dates to the 1960s and seems to have been designed by a gentleman of the surname in Atlanta, GA. Again, not much information on the origin is known but tartan researcher Tony Murray has suggested that, because the design is similar to the MacLaine of Lochbuie tartan, it may have been an intentional variation of that tartan based on the mistaken idea that the Buie family is somehow related to the LochBUIE MacLaines. This tartan is not in commercial production, so you'd have to have it custom woven if you wanted to wear it.

The MacDonald and Grant tartans are, of course, readily available. Generally in cases where the same surname is accepted by multiple clans you would need to know some geographical information about where your family in Scotland came from to get an idea of what the actual clan association may be. In the case of Bowie, according to the Clan Donald web site, those Bowies or Buies from Islay, Kintyre, and Jura are of Clan Donald.

The Clan Grant Society says this on their web site:

I seem to remember Dr. Phil Smith discussing the "Macdonald or Grant" issue for Bowies in an older edition of Tartan for Me!, and suggesting that Catholic Bowies should wear Macdonald, and Protestants the Grant. Whether this was tongue-in-cheek on Dr. Smith's part I cannot say, so I would go with what Matt posted above.

T.

[ShaunMaxwell]

Thanks, Matt and everyone else.

I'm certain that my Buie relations came from Jura, so it sounds as if MacDonald would be appropriate.

Given that, which of the MANY MacDonald tartans? Is there one particularly associated with Jura (MacDonald of the Isles, perhaps)? Or would I be better off just sticking with a more general MacDonald tartan?

I like the look of MacDonald Isles Hunting Ancient from Marton Mills...

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Well, for those who think that keeping up with the revolutions of the earth around its sun does in fact bestow any sort of legitimacy on anything - tartans in particular, let us look back a bit on our chronology:

I wasn't saying that the date of a tartan necessarily has anything to do with its legitimacy. A tartan designed last year, but recognized by the clan chief is legitimate. I was just reacting to the rather far-fetched idea that mankind is the inventor of time itself, or that something is made true just by the fact that a person believes it to be true. But neither of these statements has anything to do with tartan, so I'll just leave it at that.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Thanks, Matt and everyone else.

I'm certain that my Buie relations came from Jura, so it sounds as if MacDonald would be appropriate.

Given that, which of the MANY MacDonald tartans? Is there one particularly associated with Jura (MacDonald of the Isles, perhaps)? Or would I be better off just sticking with a more general MacDonald tartan?

I like the look of MacDonald Isles Hunting Ancient from Marton Mills...

When all else fails, the standard clan tartan in the modern colors is the way to go. The general MacDonald clan tartan is the tartan for the entire clan, regardless of where you are from or which branch you may belong to, and is never "incorrect" for any MacDonald to wear. Of course you could wear this tartan in various color schemes, as well.

That being said, if you wanted to wear the MacDonald of the Isles Hunting, ancient colors, I'm sure no one would mind. :-)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I seem to remember Dr. Phil Smith discussing the "Macdonald or Grant" issue for Bowies in an older edition of Tartan for Me!, and suggesting that Catholic Bowies should wear Macdonald, and Protestants the Grant. Whether this was tongue-in-cheek on Dr. Smith's part I cannot say, so I would go with what Matt posted above.

T.

In the most recent (8th) edition, this is what he has to say.

"The name 'Bowie' can either be 'Grant' or 'MacDonald.' If one knows that their family came from the east, then suggest a 'Grant' tartan; if from the west, then suggest 'MacDonald.' If the family traditional religion is Protestant, then 'Grant'; if Roman Catholic, possibly 'MacDonald.' Only 'MacDonald' Bowies should wear the 'Bowie' tartan. It is a variation of the 'MacDonald' tartan."

I believe he is suggesting the Protestant/Catholic thing as a helpful rule of thumb to maybe assist those who don't know what part of Scotland their Bowies came from. I don't think he was intending it as a hard and fast rule.

[macwilkin]

In the most recent (8th) edition, this is what he has to say.

"The name 'Bowie' can either be 'Grant' or 'MacDonald.' If one knows that their family came from the east, then suggest a 'Grant' tartan; if from the west, then suggest 'MacDonald.' If the family traditional religion is Protestant, then 'Grant'; if Roman Catholic, possibly 'MacDonald.' Only 'MacDonald' Bowies should wear the 'Bowie' tartan. It is a variation of the 'MacDonald' tartan."

I believe he is suggesting the Protestant/Catholic thing as a helpful rule of thumb to maybe assist those who don't know what part of Scotland their Bowies came from. I don't think he was intending it as a hard and fast rule.

Oh aye, Matt.

T.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Not to nitpick, but time as we know it is a human invention, it is a way of keeping up with how many times the earth has turned from one event to the next. We break up our days into units that we call hours, minutes and seconds, all of which are measurements calculated only by humans in relation to the position of the earth in respect to the sun. If you travel to another planet, the same chronology will not apply, as the earth's orbit is unique and is not shared by any other planet. Humans have been measuring time for so long - since the Stone Age - that we often forget the very concept of time is our own invention and does not exist as we know it outside our very limited perspective here on earth.

What you are describing here is the method in which we calculate time. Yes, we human beings have invented methods for keeping track of the passage of time. We did not invent "time" any more than we invented "space."

By the same token, what people generally believe to be the "truth" is what we come to accept as the truth. Millions of people worldwide believe in the existence of some sort of deity, does their belief in such a deity make the existence of one true? Well, for those who believe, it does - so much so that they are willing to sacrifice their own lives for what they believe. Of course, athiests would argue otherwise, and for them, the non-existence of any form of deity is the truth. The same can be applied to almost any subject that people believe in or have an opinion of. Did the holocaust really happen, or were we just led to believe it did through wartime propaganda? Was the attack on the World Trade Center an assault against the U.S. by the Taliban, or was it an "inside opporation"? Tin-foil hats or school text-books? To quote Ponsius Pilate: "What is truth?"

What we subjectively believe or understand to be true (which is what you are describing) is one thing. What is in fact objectively true is another.

To use one of your own examples, either the Holocaust happened or it did not happen. My believing it or not does not have any bearing on whether or not it was an actual historical event.

Our understanding can be either true or false compared with objective reality. How sincerely or devoutly we hold to a false belief does not make it any more true.

In a desperate bid to bring this back on topic, one can sincerely believe that the Campbell of Argyle tartan is a recognized and authentic tartan for the clan. The reality is that the chief, the Duke of Argyle, has said it is not. My sincere belief that it is does not change the fact that it is not. Does that mean I cannot wear it? Of course not. But if I go about saying "this is the clan tartan" then I would, objectively, be wrong.

Relativism is a big pet peeve of mine, and that's what we are really getting at. But this is getting far off topic, so I request you PM me if you want to discuss this further. Let's leave this thread to discussion of the Bowie/Buie tartans, shall we?