Sgian dubh carry

[Red Stag]

I'm in PA and travel into NJ. Is it legal to carry a Sgian dubh in PA and NJ? Also, if the sgian dubh does not have an edge, then is it technically not a knife? Just out of curiosity, what about the dirk? A dagger is prohibited in PA. I'm guessing the Scottish dirk would be considered a dagger? What if the dirk isn't bladed? Does anyone know of any case law that would apply? Thanks.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This has come up before and because the laws concerning the carrying of knives varies from place to place it is almost impossible to give you any meaningful advice on the subject. That said, the anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the wearing of a sgian dubh with traditional highland attire does not generally attract unwanted attention. Likewise a dirk, worn as part of a band uniform, seems to fall into the same category.

In this instance (the laws of NJ and PA) I think common sense would suggest that there is probably not going to be an issue if you are attending a Scottish games (or similar Scottish event) traditionally attired. However, if you are going out on a pub crawl in your quasi-kilt, it's probably a good idea to leave your dirk, sgian dubh (and broadsword) at home.

You might also want to use the search feature at the top of this page and see what comments others have made in the past on this very subject.

[Nighthawk]

As MoR has said, common sense would seem to suggest that if you're traditionally attired, it should be a non issue. However, black powder weapons are illegal in New Jersey. The report I read on the law stated that the reasoning behind the ban was that they are caseless and that makes them harder to track in the cases of crimes committed using them. When was the last time a 7-11 clerk reported being held up by someone with a brace of pistols? And in Colorado, there is a law still on the books regarding the number of cattle that can be hearded at any one time over certain bridges. 100 years ago, it was a worthwhile law. Now...?

Common sense and laws don't always coincide. Check with the local authorities.

[Whidbey78]

As a guy who travels quite a bit, I concur with the advice given above. Granted, I'm in a different part of the country but am in an easy driving distance(think--day trip) from two other states. My state, Nebraska, doesn't allow it except in closed to the public events. South Dakota doesn't care as long as it's visible except on the reservations where it's a no-no, and Wyoming will just about let you carry a bazooka so a small blade is not something they worry about.

In an area where I'm not sure I always ask a cop! They should know the local weapons laws, which usually say "NO!!!" or dictate a blade length. Few states make a distinction between different types of knives--even fixed vs folding blade. Many places forbid the carry of double edged blades, but allow certain single edge weapons. And usually the local constables won't care if it's technically not a dirk, or any other bladed weapon specifically named in the laws. To them it's a weapon--that's all--and unless the law says it's legal to carry it, they might not cite you, but depending on circumstances may confiscate it(but will usually allow it to be sent to you at home).

If you are at a private wedding, for example, nobody will say boo, I'm sure, but if the reception not a private party in a reserved area (where John Q. Public can join in the festivities) it may be best to leave it in the car or swing by the hotel and leave it there(if only to avoid questions, issues, or worrying about theft or loss).

I tried a "mock-dubh" with no blade--just a handle with a leather "blade" to keep it in place-- and found that it makes no difference in how people, both civilian and law enforcement, handle it since it still creates the impression of being armed. A friend in Louisiana told me it was okay to wear one, but I found out that it's not outlawed in the state, but it is in New Orleans! And the NOPD WILL stop you at Mardi Gras. Actually, they tackle with tasers drawn and cuffs go on and...and it hurt. Anywho...

Since I can't wear one in public at home, can't take it on a plane, and go to so many events at the school my wife teaches(on the reservation), and it can create issues just by going into Burger King when you've forgotten it's even there, I've actually grown out of the habit of wearing one, even in formal situations. Truth be told, I think very few notice if it's NOT there. Ultimately, it's your call. Just check state and local laws first, and make sure you get your info from a good source. Just because one guy never had any issues doesn't mean that he's not breaking the law. It just means that nobody busted him for it.

[BoldHighlander]

However, black powder weapons are illegal in New Jersey.

There must be some sort of provision then for historical reenactments , as my pards in the BAR (Brigade of the American Revolution) have held events in Trenton etc without incident for years now.

As for knife laws, this book is worth a look:
Knife Laws of the Fifty States: A Guide for the Law-Abiding Traveler.

[Piper]

However, black powder weapons are illegal in New Jersey.

As a subject of the Peoples Republic of New Jersey, and a Reenactor and Rendezvouser, I've some experience with the regulations here. Black powder weapons are not illegal, but they are subject to the same regulations as modern firearms. Which means the purchase of a reproduction Murdock pistol is subject to the same paperwork requirements as a Glock, and the law views my 1670 Dutch trade musket in the same light as my friend's Remington semi-auto shotgun. Things can get bizarre.

[Geoff Withnell]

Here is a link to a listing of knife carry law by state. http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf

Pennsylvania and New Jersey are both on page two.

Geoff Withnell

[wildrover]

In general, our Western (not talking cowboy, btw) culture increasingly views a visible potential weapon as a indicator of potential mayhem. If there's nothing visible, there's no potential for mayhem, right?

Also worth keeping in mind, though a sgian dubh is generally quite small and approximates the folding pocket knife I carry on the strap of my gym bag (actually, the sgians I've seen are smaller), the mystique surrounding it seems to get in the way of common sense...so as Nighthawk and others have said, exercise your own common sense regarding its wear, as others' sensibilities may be lacking!

Leave the dirk at home unless you're on parade, reenacting, carving meat, etc...it's a weapon, and unless you're deployed, its purpose is poking holes in the wily Highland Haggis!

I suppose, if you thought you were being unfairly targeted for your sgian dubh, you could always try holding up a 7-11 with a brace of cattle, just to make a point...but I personally think it's easier to wear a sgian dubh only when particularly appropriate or acceptable (YMMV)...or just stick a pocket knife and bottle opener in your sporran, so as not to cause an untimely stampede of the two-legged cattle . I recall at one point in college I walked to karate practice carrying a bo, or maybe it was a jo, I don't remember...got a lotta static from the hippies, as I recall. I wasn't running around beating up phone booths like that guy from Police Academy, I was just a guy carrying a stick that looked like a weapon. It probably would've gone over better if I'd replaced the jo with a Louisville Slugger, see what I mean?

-Sean

[Slag101]

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[Slag101]

Here is the long and short of weapons in NJ. Whether something is considered a weapon (not including firearms, that is a whole other subject) in NJ is based on intent, and the interpreted intent of the police officer. Here is a short break down:

If you have a baseball bat in your car and get stopped by a police officer he can view it as a piece of sporting gear or a weapon, and here are two scenarios:

[A]: You get stopped with a bat in your vehicle and are wearing a baseball uniform, athletic attire, etc. It would be hard for said officer to prove your intent was anything other than that of using it as sporting equipment.

[B]: You are in a high crime area, in "street" attire, with a bat in your car. The officer could/would/may interpret this as you having a weapon based on intent. Intent meaning you are in a bad neighborhood, dressed like a criminal, with an implement that can be used for commission of a crime.

Same would apply for a knife, hammer, 2x4, etc. If you are wearing a kilt, and have a sgain, an officer would have a heck of a time showing probable cause to suspect criminal intent. You need to remember in NJ, and most states, police officers have what is termed legal discretion. The same way a cop can pull you over for speeding and decide whether he is going to give you a ticket, or let you off with a warning.

Most cops are cool folks, and would actually be more interested in having you explain your attire and accessories, than harass you. As long as you are not obnoxious or rude and give them due respect, I doubt there is need to worry.

I never got people's fear of police. They view there job just like any other line of work, it's a job and it pays their mortgage.