Just HOW many ways can an Argyll be 'Dressed Up'?

[artificer]

Lately I've been searching for some tips and recommendations for an upcoming black tie event I'm to attend. In doing so, I've seen or read about many varying ways for a Black Argyll to be used at such an affair, and I'd like the rabble's thoughts.

All below examples are assuming a turn down (full) collar, plain front white pique' shirt and black silk bow tie, as well as kilt/hose, etc.

1) With 3 button black waistcoat. So far, this is seems the most highly recommended.

2) With non-matching waistcoat. Tartan would fit into this catagory. If going tartan, could you go with a higher 4-5 button cut and still maintain the appropriate level of formality?

3) Black 5 button (Argyll) waistcoat. Generally recommended for daytime events with a straight neck tie.

4) No waistcoat - dress kilt belt (ie BIG waistplate). The rabble's thoughts? I know in A/Saxon dress it's generally frowned upon to have an 'undressed' waist... so would the waist plate and belt suffice for Highland formal dress?

5) Cummerbund. Somewhere in the forums I've seen reference to using it, but my search-fu is weak from lack of sleep. I know it's more of a Saxon ornamentation, but would a cummerbund work with a kilt and Argyll?

As always, I'm grateful for an info our knowledge-rich forumites can share.

ith:

[Jock Scot]

There are two types of argyll, tweed which I would consider as informal(up to suit equivalent) regardless of colour including black.

The second species of argyll is the black(can be other colours)barathea mainly, although velvet is another popular option, with silver buttons. The barathea version is usually worn with a white shirt and four-in-hand tie for formal day wear(morning suit equivalent).

However, with a three button waistcoat and appropriate shirt it works very well with a black tie. These options make the argyll the most versatile kilt jacket there is.

A kilt belt without the waistcoat is a perfectly sound procedure, although I prefer to see a brass buckle for informal day wear and not a dress buckle plate, which is of course used for the formal day wear and evening dress occasions if required.

I am not a fan of cummerbunds when worn with the kilt, but it is done.

[Urchurdan]

I don't possess trews, but if I did, I would wear a cummberbund with them with preferably a PC with of course no waistcoat.
I have seen this done at formal vents to great effect. I am not the build for trews, and prefer the kilt anyway, but I have admired a few gentlemen dressed like this I have to say.
I have never seen it done with an argylle jacket.

[MacLowlife]

This is as good a thread as any to derail with talk about waistcoats. The depth of the "V" (sometimes called the gorge) goes up and down according to fashion. Here at X Marks, we talk mostly in terms of the 3 button and the 5 button, with an assumption or shared prejudice, that 3 is more formal and 5 is less so. In MOST cases, 3 also implies lapels, while 5 usually doesn't. However, you don't have to look any further than John Steed's formal wear in The Avengers ( the original TV series, not the movie ) to see that the high gorge vest has been worn as formal wear before, just as it seems to be done now in the rental/hire formalwear business. SO, while many of us think of an inverse relationship between the height of formality and the height of the gorge, there are others who calculate differently, depending on what was in style when they came of age or formed their prejudices.

Similarly, I expect somebody might say the same for button material (bone, plastic, metal, fabric covered) or jacket fabric. Somewhere there are people who find velvet to be less dressy than barathea and they argue over drinks with their cousins who feel the opposite to be true. Somewhere there are people whose tartan doublets are made of silk Dupioni and they quietly tut over the sad irony of the people who make do with wool.

But I have derailed my derailing.

For most of us, the low waistcoat does elevate the Argyll to almost-tuxedo status. I think, since the low waistcoat serves as a substitute for the cummerbund or sash, presumably the cummerbund or sash could serve as a substitute for the low waistcoat, even with a kilt. I think the high waistcoat can do the same thing ( go with a black bow tie) if you like the look. We see high waistcoats shown and rented with PC jackets all of the time. If your waistcoat has black plastic or bone buttons, it is going to look too informal for a black tie function, but if the buttons match your Argyll or they are fabric covered, you will probably look fine.

Isn't it Cluny MacPherson ( do we call him THE Cluny?) who looks so good in his jacket with only a shiny waistplate to stop his kilt from climbing to his neck? He dresses up the rest of his rig so that the lack of a vest or cummerbund seems unimportant. If he were hanging around in a brown sporran and tan suede shoes, it would probably not work so well with a black tie.

Down here on the wrong side of the tracks, many of us like to wear needlepoint cummerbunds with our Saxon formal wear. I do not think I have ever seen one with a kilt, but the right one might look OK. If you showed up at my house in a tartan patterned needlepoint anything- slippers, cummerbund, vest, eyeglass case- you'd better hope it was not in my size, because I might knock you over the head for it.

[Macman]

I sometimes don't wear a waistcoat. When I don't, I wear a belt and waistplate because I like the look on me. I don't think it's a necessity, though.
I'm not a fan of the cummerbund with the kilt. That's just me.

[BobsYourUncle]

Isn't it Cluny MacPherson ( do we call him THE Cluny?) who looks so good in his jacket with only a shiny waistplate to stop his kilt from climbing to his neck? [/QUOTE]

He is called simply "Cluny", as an abbreviation for Cluny-MacPherson, and his companion is to be addressed as Lady Cluny. See So You're Going to Wear the Kilt, Thompson, page 51.

I have enjoyed your derailment, and your derailment of your derailment as well. You have it down to a fine art...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Lately I've been searching for some tips and recommendations for an upcoming black tie event I'm to attend. In doing so, I've seen or read about many varying ways for a Black Argyll to be used at such an affair, and I'd like the rabble's thoughts.

All below examples are assuming a turn down (full) collar, plain front white pique' shirt and black silk bow tie, as well as kilt/hose, etc.

1) With 3 button black waistcoat. So far, this is seems the most highly recommended.

Indeed it is, and with good reason. This is what used to be referred to by tailors as a "Dress Argyll Jacket", and it is acceptable for all black- tie wear.

2) With non-matching waistcoat. Tartan would fit into this catagory. If going tartan, could you go with a higher 4-5 button cut and still maintain the appropriate level of formality?

Actually, if going with tartan (or a solid colour like red) I'd stick with the three button waistcoat for black tie.

3) Black 5 button (Argyll) waistcoat. Generally recommended for daytime events with a straight neck tie.

Yup, that's it. However, you have the option of wearing a pearl grey waistcoat if your prefer-- and I prefer. The late Harry Borthwick had a 5-button waistcoat done up in a very small sett of Borthwick tartan which looked the business, and if you can afford it, that would be the way to go.

4) No waistcoat - dress kilt belt (ie BIG waistplate). The rabble's thoughts? I know in A/Saxon dress it's generally frowned upon to have an 'undressed' waist... so would the waist plate and belt suffice for Highland formal dress?

I'm personally not fond of this look as it is too "dressed down" for my tastes, and shows far too much shirt, which detracts from the sett of the kilt. A belt draws a hard line between kilt and shirt, dividing the outfit into two distinct halves, unlike the waistcoat which neatly ties everything together into one, cohesive, fashion statement.

5) Cummerbund. Somewhere in the forums I've seen reference to using it, but my search-function is weak from lack of sleep. I know it's more of a Saxon ornamentation, but would a cummerbund work with a kilt and Argyll?

Again, something I'm not fond of with the kilt. I can barely tolerate the cummerbund with trews, and only then if worn with a regular length dinner jacket. In my opinion, and experience, anything that "cuts in half" the visual look of the outfit (a belt or cummerbund) upsets the balance of the ensemble, and gives the wearer an awkward appearance by making the top half appear too small in relation to the rest of the outfit.

As always, I'm grateful for any info our knowledge-rich forumites can share.

ith:

In that instance let me suggest that a pith helmet should only be worn with white cotton, or sharkskin, jackets. If one is wearing linen, a wide brimmed panama hat is to be preferred.

[MacLowlife]

Thanks, MoR for the pith lore.

It is still straw hat season down here in the semi- tropics.The mosquitoes have put away their white shoes and seersucker, but they haven't left town.

[ThistleDown]

He is called simply "Cluny", as an abbreviation for Cluny-MacPherson, and his companion is to be addressed as Lady Cluny. See So You're Going to Wear the Kilt, Thompson, page 51.

I have enjoyed your derailment, and your derailment of your derailment as well. You have it down to a fine art...

An even further derailment. The present Macpherson chief is Sir William Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie. His patronymic is Cluny. He is a widower; his late wife was Lady Macpherson in recognition of his knighthood, not his chiefship.

[artificer]

Thanks all, I think I'm going to see if I can get a bias cut three button tartan waistcoat made before the event. If that doesn't pan out, I'll probably scoop up a black one.

BTW: MacLowlife, I love your multi-train derailments.