Modern tartans- historical tartans

[PalmerPirate]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and somewhat new to kilts in a historical context.
I'm considering reenacting as a mid-rank '45 Jacobite. I'm not new to the field of 18th century reenacting, so I already have/can easily obtain most of the things needed for an impression. What I'm curious about is what tartans would be historically appropriate for a Jacobite? Are there any "modern" tartans that would be considered historically appropriate? Once I have one picked, where can I get it?
Sorry if this question has already been answered, I wasn't sure. 'Tis a big forum.
Thanks for reading, any help would be appreciated.

[Brian K]

I can't really help you, but

[Captain_Cogle]

Try Harris Tweed in the UK they have great historically accurate tartans. Another source for you would be William Booth Draper at the Sign of the Unicorn.

Since you are not new to 18th century then you know the basics, earth tones, simple patterns are hard to go wrong with so on and so forth.

Hope this helps.

[figheadair]

There are no modern tartans that were used by the Jacobites but there are tartans in modern use, i.e. today, that have a Jocobite antiquity. The two are not the same thing of course.

However, and this is a big caveat, most modern weavings of old patterns are generally pitiful attempts to render the original setting and colours because the commercial suppliers are only interested in profit and not historical accuracy.

Historically accurate setts will always require a special weave run. You might want to have a look at this thread http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-thread-63376/. I still have some of this in stock. PM me for details if intersted.

[Morris at Heathfield]

Matt Newsome has written an article on this subject. It has a fairly extensive list of tartans that are reputed to have existed before Culloden (with some discussion of how solid the evidence is), although it is by no means a definitive list.

Again, as Peter said, even tartans that can be proven to have existed before Culloden, and are still woven today, have changed in hue, and likely in proportion as well, over the years.

[PalmerPirate]

Thanks for the help gentlemen, I really appreciate it.
Was there any rhyme or reason to the tartan setts that existed in the 18th century? Or were they just spun with the setts just being a matter of personal taste? If this is the case- then couldn't I just use most setts, provided that I found one with period-correct and rank-appropriate colors? Again, thanks for the help.

[figheadair]

Matt Newsome has written an article on this subject. It has a fairly extensive list of tartans that are reputed to have existed before Culloden (with some discussion of how solid the evidence is), although it is by no means a definitive list.

Again, as Peter said, even tartans that can be proven to have existed before Culloden, and are still woven today, have changed in hue, and likely in proportion as well, over the years.

Matt's article is worth a read as it was inspired by a similar question to that in the OP of this thread however I would urge caution about antiquity and/or setting of a lot of the 'claimed' pre-culloden tartans mentioned as the source for the date was often one or another C19th publication.

Thanks for the help gentlemen, I really appreciate it.
Was there any rhyme or reason to the tartan setts that existed in the 18th century? Or were they just spun with the setts just being a matter of personal taste? If this is the case- then couldn't I just use most setts, provided that I found one with period-correct and rank-appropriate colors? Again, thanks for the help.

There was some reason for the various settings of old tartans but I cannot possibly deal with that here. The majority of pre-Culloden tartans that survive are not in general use today and so are not readily available. Some of those that are include:

Culloden
MacColl
MacDonald of Kingsburgh
MacDonald of the Isles (Red)
MacDougall
Murray of Tullibardine

However, in every case what the trade weave has little similarity with the original.

[Brian K]

There was some reason for the various settings of old tartans but I cannot possibly deal with that here. The majority of pre-Culloden tartans that survive are not in general use today and so are not readily available. Some of those that are include:

Culloden
MacColl
MacDonald of Kingsburgh
MacDonald of the Isles (Red)
MacDougall
Murray of Tullibardine

However, in every case what the trade weave has little similarity with the original.

I find this interesting, Peter, as everything I have read has indicated that local weavers wove patterns they liked with yarns dyed with colors they had easily available and that's what people in the area wore because it was at hand. You, however, are the expert and know much better than this non-scholar about the subject. Do you have links to what you alluded to above? Perhaps some articles of your own? I would be very interested in reading them.

Regards,

Brian

[figheadair]

I find this interesting, Peter, as everything I have read has indicated that local weavers wove patterns they liked with yarns dyed with colors they had easily available and that's what people in the area wore because it was at hand. You, however, are the expert and know much better than this non-scholar about the subject. Do you have links to what you alluded to above? Perhaps some articles of your own? I would be very interested in reading them.

Regards,

Brian

Brian,

You are basically correct and the setts I mention may well have been just that. All my published articles are here - http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/research.htm

There are so few old pieces and even fewer that can be grouped into a given area that very little research has has been done, as opposed to theorising, on regional styles and techniques. I'm currently working on several old pieces from the Appin/Lorn area that show a common structure and two of which look as though they are off the same loom and so probably from the same weaver which is very exciting and the only known example that I'm aware of.

[PalmerPirate]

Fascinating! I wasn't intending to find a clan tartan and wear it because it claimed to be from the eighteenth century. I was thinking more about finding one that could exist in the 18th century, regardless of whether or not it's similar to a modern tartan.
Were most tartans based off of setts that already existed at the time? Would some weaver just see a sett he liked and simply make something roughly similar, or were there only certain existing tartans inside specific "rules?" How much room was there for variation?
Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, or if my questions seem to overlap. Again, you have all been most helpful and I greatly appreciate the comments.