Sub-Forum Descriptors

[ThistleDown]

To all:

Over the past weeks members in the Traditional and Modern sub-forums have been discussing how those two forums are defined or described, and have asked that changes by made. Staff has listened very carefully to what has been said and has developed a set of descriptors to present to you. We apologise for the delay, but we have had to wedge this discussion into an already heavy work-load.

There are a number of things to consider. One is that we are not able to further fracture the forum by adding more sub-forums; it is necessary to work with what we have. It is also necessary that all three sub-forums have a common base that makes sense and is easily understood by old-timer and newbie alike. Further, the three need to have equal rights because XMarks is a kilt forum without bias to any one of the three.

And, of course, it was necessary for us to attempt to address the issues you have brought forth. We invite you to comment as you see fit. The Owner and Moderators will try to refrain from active participation but you may be assured that we are monitoring the discussion and after a while will begin again our own conversations considering what you have told us.

In developing these descriptors we used the following definitions in common use today:

Historic(al): used in the past.
Classic(al): the established model or standard.
Tradition(al): passed down within a society, still maintained in the present, with origins in the past.
Non-Tradition(al): not bound by established ways, beliefs or styles.

Best wishes,
ThistleDown (Rex)
for the Staff


Historical Highland Dress. The place for discussion of historical Highland civilian and military apparel and style.

Traditional Highland Dress. The place for discussion of traditional and classic Highland civilian and military apparel and style.

Non-Traditional Kilt Wear. The place for discussion of various alternative fashions, styles and manners of kilt wearing current today.

[Zardoz]

That sounds great to me, I think a seperate place for contemporary styles will sort out a lot of the seeming confusion and resultant argument that we've been seeing.

I have one comment though, I feel that "The place for discussion of various alternative fashions, styles and manners of kilt wearing current today." sounds a little clunky, and the word "alternative" can mean different things to different people.

How about something like;
Non-Traditional Kilt Wear. The place for discussion of the various contemporary styles of kilts and kilt fashion today.

[DWFII]

I originally posted this in another sub-forum but decided it was probably self-evident. Now I'm not so sure. I'm not even sure that it is germane but...

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and mention the unmentionable:

As long as people are talking about changing things to make them more understandable to newbies...

When I came on board I, too, experienced some confusion: I thought this forum was about Scottish things such as kilts and whisky and highland history, culture and tradition.

After all, the Forum is XmarkstheScot. There's something implied in the forum title that seems to have been lost in a whole lot of other things. Or gotten conflated with a welter of stuff unrelated to Scotland or Scots (at least from a newbie's POV).

I don't have any firm opinions as to whether this is good or bad...although I suspect a great deal of the vitriol and angst is directly related to this pairing of chalk and cheese...but it is misleading.

Anyway...just thought I'd throw that in there as food for thought...

[chrisupyonder]

That sounds great to me, I think a seperate place for contemporary styles will sort out a lot of the seeming confusion and resultant argument that we've been seeing.

I have one comment though, I feel that "The place for discussion of various alternative fashions, styles and manners of kilt wearing current today." sounds a little clunky, and the word "alternative" can mean different things to different people.

How about something like;
Non-Traditional Kilt Wear. The place for discussion of the various contemporary styles of kilts and kilt fashion today.

Sounds good to me but where does this fit in?

A plain black/white/pink kilt made with 8yd knife pleat 16oz pure Scottish wool hand sewn by a tradional kiltmaker worn with sporran, black argyll jacket, black hose and black brogues and we wanted to discuss what flashes to go with the hose?

The wearing is traditional but the kilt is not.

or

My MacLaren tank 8yd knife pleat 16oz pure scottish wool etc. worn with a tee shirt, no hose and sandals and wanted to discuss what colour baseball cap to wear?

The kilt is traditional but the wearing is not.

OK, above is exaggerated but still confused and would prefer just "Historical kilt wear" and "Modern Kiltware"

Just my half pence worth!

Chris.

[EagleJCS]

I like the rewording for the most part. I agree with Zardoz that 'alternative' may have various meanings/interpretations, depending upon one's location/lifestyle.

How about this instead?

Non-Traditional Kilt Wear. The place for discussion of the various contemporary styles and manners of kilt wearing.

I think this would also allow for some mixing of the traditional and non-traditional (as Chris indicated there may be some cross-over). (e.g. a 'traditional' tartan kilt with non-traditional accessories, like a baseball cap.)

The sub-forums and descriptions don't have to be mutually exclusive, do they?

[Java]

I like the "Non-Traditional Kilt Wear" where the "Non-Traditional" refers to either the kilt, or how it's worn. I know this is the way it is now, and I know it can sometimes be confusing. I know part of the reason for this thread was people calling for a sub-forum just for non-traditional kilts. I also know I've never seen such a sub-forum that had a new thread appear more than every 6 months or so. The "wearing of any kilt in a non-traditional way" threads are what gives that sub-forum enough traffic to be worth keeping. The problem I think is that there are not enough (of us) contemporary kilt wearers that care enough about how we wear them, to join forums such as this. I hope I'm wrong, I hope this is followed by a landslide of posts telling me how wrong I am. But I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, and I agree with Zardoz and EagleJCS on the wording.

Have Fun,
Tom

[DWFII]

I suspect people are forgetting where these sub-forum began and what the motivation for creating them was.

Too loose a definition of what is "traditional and non-traditional" almost always ends up in conflict.

And, really, what would be the point of having separate sub-forums if everything is going to be conflated?

Fair warning...this is my opinion...take it or leave it...

I suspect I am not alone in thinking that MUGs are not real kilts. I regret if that offends anyone but there it is.

"Kilt" is an English word...from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary © 2008 Oxford University Press:

"noun: a knee-length skirt of pleated tartan cloth, traditionally worn by men as part of Scottish Highland dress. "

There have been other cultures that have worn something that, by a great stretch of the imagination, might be called a kilt... if you want to ignore the fact that they weren't call a "kilt" by anyone, not even the native speakers. The word "kilt" refers to a very specific thing with very specific associations.

I have nothing against people who wear MUGs...leather, denim, chiffon or whatever. I am indifferent.

But along with that I have no desire to talk about them or see photos of them or extol them. Nor do I want to get into a hassle with someone who thinks my preferences for kilts, as defined by the OED, is unacceptable. I think it is not only fair but wise to have "sanctuaries", if nothing else, where people can get together and discuss things they are interested in without being brought up short by predisposed disagreement .

This forum has made room ("rooms") for people of all persuasions. Why in the world do we have to push everybody out into the street? Is it because those who prefer modern styles feel left out, feel neglected...as this thread explored?

Or is it some politically correct impulse to take everything down to the lowest common denominator?

I can live with what ThistleDown has suggested but I would not be comfortable with a further watering down of the distinctions.

[Jock Scot]

Thank you Rex and others for taking the time to address this subject and the proposed new definitions are a vast improvement on what we had, of that there is no question.

However, I do wonder if we are missing one vital word in the proposed "Historical" and "Traditional" headings and that is:-----------SCOTLAND, or a derivative of it. Is it not possible to include that oh so important word?

[Duke of Delrio]

I find myself seconding Jock's question, and I, too, put it out as a question.

[English Bloke]

Scotland? Highland? Semantics? The Kilt is traditionally Scottish Highland attire. Of this most of us should be aware. Although it is worn in the rest of Scotland (and the rest of the world) these days, it undoubtedly stems from the Highlands. Anyone who doesn't associate the Highlands and Kilts with Scotland, really has a great deal to learn.

EDIT: I just think it's all too wordy.

Historical Scottish Highland Dress: Kilts and Kilt accoutrements as they used to be worn.

Traditional Scottish Highland Dress: Tartan Kilts, tweeds, brogues and black tie dinners. How it should be done.

Non-Traditional Kilt Wear: A Modern and alternative, relaxed approach to the Kilt in all it's guises.

err... not that my suggestion uses any less words... probably!