REAL stumper... Argyll Buttons

[RockyR]

Guys,

Here's a question I posed to a couple experts in Scotland and had them stumped. Let's see if any of the experts up here can help...

On the buttons for the PC and/or Argyll jacket, there is a rampant lion. It's pretty obviously a symbol of Scotland. However, there are ALSO a few words. In no particular order (don't know which is first and which is last):

Clann n
ar Sael
Ansram
Gracrelle

The first 2 wrap around a corner, so it MAY be "Clann Nar Sael"

Anyone have any ideas? I am TRULY stumped and have wondered what it means for a long time.

[davidlpope]

Clann na gael...

The font is a bit wonky(g looks like an s, etc.) so letters are not always what they appear. My guess is that it was supposed to be Scots Gaelic but the manufacturer doesn't speak the Gaelic so it came out as nonsense.

It does make one wonder what it was supposed to be...

[Jock Scot]

I have absolutely no idea and I have not met anyone who has!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

clann na ngael == children (or family) of the Gaels (ie the Gaelic speaking people, which, in Scotland would be the population of the Highlands).

[Jock Scot]

clann na ngael == children (or family) of the Gaels (ie the Gaelic speaking people, which, in Scotland would be the population of the Highlands).

Well well, never too old to learn. What?

[MacSpadger]

clann na ngael == children (or family) of the Gaels (ie the Gaelic speaking people, which, in Scotland would be the population of the Highlands).

I think these ubiquitous buttons are perhaps a bad example of translation. The lion of Scotland is in no doubt, but Clann na ngael is more properly the Irish (Gaeilge), way of saying it. The Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig) version would be Clan na Gael.

This made me wonder if Ansram is an attempt at ans’rann, meaning pedigree or genealogy or possibly group or division, (according to Dwelly’s dictionary, but I could find no Irish equivalent) but I didn’t have a clue about Gracrelle. By now I am wondering if the whole thing is bad Irish!
This got me going to my own wardrobe where I have two jackets and a waistcoat with these buttons on them. My buttons clearly say not gracrelle, but an cheile, which again is not Scottish Gaelic but Irish Gaeilge for “each other” or “one another”. However, I am not sure the word Ansram is clear to me.
Anything further would be a guess, and the internet is full of “facts” that come from guesses, so I’m not going any further!

[RockyR]

I have absolutely no idea and I have not met anyone who has!

And yet we all wear them on our dress jackets.

On further inspection, the Ansram has the first line in the M starting UP... maybe more like a cursive Un or like an \M (hard to draw with text... sorry). If it was a bad 'translation' from an older button, could it be

Ansraun or something like that? I think we're on the right track with the letters being mis-scribed over time.

[CelticSire]

Here is my SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess): Tell me if this makes sense: It’s a poor attempt at something similar to “Clann na ngael ansr am an cheile” “The families of the Highlands answer only to each other” (I don’t speak Gaelic, either Irish or Scot, but I do have some experience working with languages) I'm sure the Gaelic isn't correct, but close?

[Chas]

We have had exactly this same discussion before - within the last two years. I have tried searching but can find nothing.

Regards

Chas

[figheadair]

We have had exactly this same discussion before - within the last two years. I have tried searching but can find nothing.

Regards

Chas

We did indeed. It was on the Gaelic thread I believe. I contributed but can't find those enties either.