Traditional traditionalists?

[MacLowlife]

Panache posted a couple of great photos in the General Kilt Talk section titled New Traditionalists. He is wearing a smooth leather blazer and no necktie. no flashes on his rag-knit hose, and a slightly fashion-forward purple shirt. His shoes are regular oxfords and his sporran is a brown Nightstalker, I believe.

Following his lead, several people have posted pictures that are more and less traditional.

My question are these:

How far can one stray and still be traditional?

What elements absolutely MUST be present in a traditional kilt outfit- let's go ahead and say a traditional DAY kilt outfit?

As a garment and not a museum costume, does the kilt evolve within tradition (thus separating "traditional" from "historical",) or is it fixed?

I went to a meeting last night in a Black Watch kilt, with rag socks, coincidentally, but I was wearing red flashes and "dirty bucks". I had on a striped shirt, but it was under a crewneck sweater and a down vest. I will admit, the vest was also BW patterned, but it was in that thin nylon they make down vests out of, not tartan. I thought of my outfit as casual, but traditional. Was I wrong?

Does traditional daywear imply a necktie?

[Nighthawk]

As a garment and not a museum costume, does the kilt evolve within tradition (thus separating "traditional" from "historical",) or is it fixed?

While I can't speak to the rest of your questions, I would offer a thought- there's a difference between a living tradition (which, like all living things, will evolve) and dogma (which does not evolve.)

[Father Bill]

I was thinking something similar as I examined the other thread. The word "traditional" is, after all, still a word. Even its traditional meanings (little joke there, don't laugh too hard) are open to discussion as we often see on this forum. Narrow interpretations tend to be the opinion of one person.

Frankly, much of what I saw on the "new traditionalists" thread were, in my mind, just up-to-date traditionals. In my mind if you have a tartan kilt, a sporran and knee hose with fairly conservative shoes and shirt you're probably traditional, but remember - I did say "in my mind."

So... how far can you go? Well, how are fairly conservative (traditional?) people dressing these days? I think that the term "fairly conservative" sums it up for me. That probably means that we can argue about what that means now.

Words...

Words...

Words, words, words.

Makes one wonder how much we can get out of a word's worth.

[Paul Henry]

To be honest I'm not sure there is a definition, and I feel that trying to work out the finer points of particular styles of wearing is almost a futile quest, sorry.Various people understand different traditions and some become very vocal about the rights and wrongs.
I wear my kilts often in a traditional way - but not always, but I always wear my kilts in a comfortable way and one that fits the situation that I find myself.
All my kilts are made with a high rise , so perhaps that also affects how I wear them, but it doesn't affect what I coordinate them with, that is style- or lack of it!

[Peter Crowe]

While I can't speak to the rest of your questions, I would offer a thought- there's a difference between a living tradition (which, like all living things, will evolve) and dogma (which does not evolve.)

Well stated, I agree completely Nighthawk

[Panache]

Interesting thought to ponder. Looking a the thread I made I see all sorts of great photos (everyone looks grand) but some seem to me to be far more traditional than modern.

Let me compare two


Here is Matt Newsome



Here is Brian (Woodsheal)




Very similar looks. Yet I would call Matt's a traditionalist approach to a warm weather kilt outfit while Brian's is modern. Why? Well I will leave out shoes because I can't see Matt's.

(1) Matt is wearing traditional kilt hose with traditional garter ties where Brian is wearing what look like regular socks scrunched down.

(2) Matt's kilt has a kilt pin, Brian has skipped it for this outfit. The pin isn't really essential to the kilt but this lack of the extra ornamentation make Brian's outfit seem more streamlined and utilitarian (modern)

(3) Matt's lack of a belt seems more of an older style compared with Brian's regular (i.e. not a wide kilt) belt.

(4) Matt's khaki short sleeved "safari" shirt links the simple military style sporran both gentlemen are wearing to give him a 1930s - 1940s "highland regiment stationed in the tropics" vibe to his outfit. Brian's subtlely striped knit polo is a much more modern look and doesn't link with the military sporran. The miltary sporran becomes simply a simple utilitarian sporran than goes with the simple thin belt he has.

(5) While I don't particularly like baseball caps, wearing one instead of going bareheaded or wearing some sort of tam adds a final modern and personal touch to Brian's outfit

Both gents look great and comfortable, but to me Matt is the traditionalist and Brian the modernist comparing these two photos. Truth be told Matt's outfit is a lot like the ones I like to wear in the summer months though he forgot the tan web belt and the pith helmet! ith:
Cheers

Jamie

[MacLowlife]

I am not trying to pick any fights- I hope to get some people thinking and some people ( maybe even the same ones) talking. I appreciate everyone's responses.

Paul Henry, I think some of your kilts are clearly on one side of the line and some are on the other. I would say a traditional kilt ought to be either wool or something made to look like wool. That lets out the very cool pink shimmery one and probably a striped denim one as well. The green Italian tweed? I am not sure how bright that green is. I do know that it is cool, though.

[seanachie]

I wear my kilts often in a traditional way - but not always, but I always wear my kilts in a comfortable way and one that fits the situation that I find myself.

Very well said Paul, I agree very much with this comment.

For myself practicality enters into the equation at times of traditional or casual as well. At work one part of my job is receiving chemical raw materials and cosmetic production samples. It would be imprudent to wear a nice wool kilt, but on Fridays I can come to work kilted. So do I forgo wearing the kilt and deny myself my preferred dress? No, in my circumstance I adapt.

[Panache]

MacLowlife,

I don't think you are trying to pick any fights.* It is an interesting concept to try and figure out the line between "traditional" and "modern". Heck it is pretty hard to just try and define what "traditional" and "modern" are.

I just gave my best shot at trying to figure out two outfits that could be easily described as "kilt worn with a short sleeve shirt" and figure out what made one (in my eyes) traditional and the other modern. As I went through the elements it finally struck me that it wasn't one particular bit (or lack) of kit that made the outfit one way or the other. It was the overall look of all those elements together. Matt has a subtle classic military vibe going on while Brian has a hint of a modern duffer on the fairways to him.

It is interesting stuff to think and talk about, but that is what is fun about Fashion.

Cheers

Jamie



* Except that my shoes aren't just any old brown oxfords! Those shoes are authentic pointy metal tipped 1980s vintage swordfish skin Zodiacs!

[CMcG]

I'll try to answer these questions with two big caveats in front: THCD according to the origins of the kilt as a Scottish garment and

IMHO

How far can one stray and still be traditional?
...

As a garment and not a museum costume, does the kilt evolve within tradition (thus separating "traditional" from "historical",) or is it fixed?

One cannot stray too far... traditions evolve from conventions being gently bent, not from being broken.

What elements absolutely MUST be present in a traditional kilt outfit- let's go ahead and say a traditional DAY kilt outfit?

...

Does traditional daywear imply a necktie?

Kilt, knife-pleated to the sett or the stripe. Must be wool and probably tartan, though some estate tweeds might also qualify. Worn on the natural waist and falling no lower than mid-knee. Usually 8ish yards and hand sewn though you might get away with lower yardage and machine sewn because no-one is likely to notice.

Solid colour kilt hose, anything but white.

Flashes or garter ties, solid colour.

Plain leather, hunting, or full mask sporran. Leather strap is preferable to a chain.

Button up shirt in a solid, light colour or subtle pattern such as tattersal.

Kilt cut tweed jacket, waistcoat optional. A plain belt could be worn if there is no waistcoat, but not a dirk belt.

Long neck tie, preferably in a school or regimental stripe.

Leather shoes, black or brown, either oxford or brogues.

I'd say a sgian and kilt pin are optional, but highly desirable.

If outside, Balmoral bonnet or, less commonly, a Glengarry. Either is worn with one's clan crest badge.

I went to a meeting last night in a Black Watch kilt, with rag socks, coincidentally, but I was wearing red flashes and "dirty bucks". I had on a striped shirt, but it was under a crewneck sweater and a down vest. I will admit, the vest was also BW patterned, but it was in that thin nylon they make down vests out of, not tartan. I thought of my outfit as casual, but traditional. Was I wrong?

I don't think you were wrong to wear that outfit but it sounds like it is more of a "new traditionalist" approach. Nylon down vests are not THCD, even when they are in the Black Watch tartan. I'm sure you looked grand, though

--------------------------

All in all, I'd say part of the essence of traditional traditionalism is being conservative. That means making an effort to dress within the range of what has already been established as conventional. There are certainly plenty of options and it isn't a uniform, so one also needs to find a way to express themselves within those boundaries.