Goal to get a grant of COA

[WVHighlander]

Well I have now talked to the Irish Chief Herald, Lord Lyon, and the College of Arms.

I would like to receive my grant from Lyon; however, as it stands I qualify for the other two. The problem I am having with the Lyon is proving Scottish ancestry on the paternal side. It seems my paternal side has been here quite a while and went straight to the mountains upon arrival...ergo crappy records.

Anyone else have this problem? The states I am working with are KY and NC.

[davidlpope]

Well I have now talked to the Irish Chief Herald, Lord Lyon, and the College of Arms.

I would like to receive my grant from Lyon; however, as it stands I qualify for the other two. The problem I am having with the Lyon is proving Scottish ancestry on the paternal side. It seems my paternal side has been here quite a while and went straight to the mountains upon arrival...ergo crappy records.

Anyone else have this problem? The states I am working with are KY and NC.

In a word, yes. The COA requires that one prove descent from a subject of the English crown, so you might have to have proof dating prior to the Treaty of Paris, no small feat if your ancestors were here very early.

One thing to consider is that there is no difference under US law between granted, matriculated, or assumed arms.

Given the high price of a grant, one might consider assuming arms and using the thousands of dollars that would have been spent on the grant in commissioning a library painting, signet ring, banner, etc.

Of course, there is a certain cachet in having arms that were granted by an official office.

Cordially,

David

[WVHighlander]

David,

I quite understand you point. As it were, I could have arms created and listed in the American College of Heraldry and pay on $350 or so. However, with my Clan association, military background, historic academic leaning, and vacations to the UK...I have leaned toward this route. The College and Ireland are less stringent about this than the Lyon. In both cases I have the necessary paperwork to qualify. The College only wants to show ancestry before the Treaty...done. Ireland only wants one Irish ancestor in the lineage with paperwork...also done. It took over a year of research but I have that; however, the Lyon is my gold ring. Unless I find out someone changed our surname in the past and I am really of English etc. descent. However, from the DNA tests I have taken....I am looking VERY Celtic.

It is sad really. G Washington, J Adams and many other founders were proponents of Heraldry. I wish the US would have allowed for an official College to have been created. Ireland is a republic and has one...with no ill effect of plebeian thought. Perhaps opinions of ostentatious..but not nobility.

However, if I am unable to attain the COA from the aforementioned organizations then I will probably go the American College route.

[davidlpope]

David,

I quite understand you point. As it were, I could have arms created and listed in the American College of Heraldry and pay on $350 or so. However, with my Clan association, military background, historic academic leaning, and vacations to the UK...I have leaned toward this route. It is sad really. G Washington, J Adams and many other founders were proponents of Heraldry. I wish the US would have allowed for an official College to have been created. Ireland is a republic and has one...with no ill effect of plebeian thought. Perhaps opinions of ostentatious..but not nobility.

However, if I am unable to attain the COA from the aforementioned organizations then I will probably go the American College route.

I understand well, being of a very similar mind...

If you do decide to go towards the assumption route (as Washington and Adams did) I'd urge you to register your arms with the NEHGS instead of the ACH. In my mind you don't get much with ACH for the money and the NEHGS is the older, and in my estimation, better respected of the two.

I've found the AHS website a good source of information:
http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php

[rlloyd]

This is something I've been thinking of looking into. A quick question, if I may: does it have to be paternally going all the way back (as in father, his father, his father's father, etc.) or does it have to be something on your father's side (for example, father's mother)? My last name is Lloyd, which is undeniably Welsh in every way, but my paternal grandmother was a Foster and I have that lineage traced back to the 1500's going from Forrester to Foster at a point along the ways when my ancestors moved from the Lowlands on down into England.

[davidlpope]

This is something I've been thinking of looking into. A quick question, if I may: does it have to be paternally going all the way back (as in father, his father, his father's father, etc.) or does it have to be something on your father's side (for example, father's mother)? My last name is Lloyd, which is undeniably Welsh in every way, but my paternal grandmother was a Foster and I have that lineage traced back to the 1500's.

Lord Lyon requires that one's paternal line ancestor be under his jurisdiction, as arms follow the name. Arms are granted to that ancestor and then a cadet matriculation from that grant is obtained.

So, if one's last name is Pope and one's ancestors emigrated from Bristol, England to the Colonies, LL has no jurisdiction. I assume your situation is the same.

[WVHighlander]

Unless you currently fall under the jurisdiction of the Lyon such as owning property, or perform an act for the Lyon that may merit him granting arms.

[Chas]

Unless you currently fall under the jurisdiction of the Lyon such as owning property, or perform an act for the Lyon that may merit him granting arms.

Just as a bit of clarification. The fact of owning property in Scotland in itself is not enough.

The man petitioning for a grant from Lord Lyon must show:
- that they live in or on the property for a minimum of 184 days each year, (being just over one half of a year),
- that there is a habitable building on the land or an ancient building being rebuilt,
- that they can be contacted, by post, at that address.

I do not know what act could be performed for LL to make him grant arms.

Regards

Chas

[Jock Scot]

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I do not know what act could be performed for LL to make him grant arms.

Regards

Chas

Oh I should think that saving his life for the tenth time , might just swing the decision your way!

[Chas]

Another little clarification.

American citizens cannot get a grant from the College of Arms. Not their jurisdiction. What Americans (and all other nationals) get is a Devisal.

Is there a difference - well yes and no. Yes, in as much as the Letters Patent do not say the word grant anywhere, but say devise instead (grant and assign becomes devise and assign). No, in as much as everything else is the same - although it might cost more.

The scrivening (writing) is the same; the artwork is up to the same high standard; the seals are the same and so are the signatures. The process is the same, but the college might require a bit more contact. Sometimes this means you going to the College a few more times (if you are already in the UK), but more often than not the herald will visit you. This is where the extra cost comes in. With luck there is only need for one visit, but if you want the arms presented, the herald will do so in person and in uniform. Your expense again.

So there we have it - a world of difference and no difference at all.

Regards

Chas