Origins of Fringe / No fringe

[Domehead]

Helloooooo Rabble,
Questions:
Why no fringe on Regimental (Military) kilts?
Why fringe on Civilian kilts?

I'm not asking about the practicalities of the aspect. More, chicken & egg.
Thanks

[The Wizard of BC]

I am not a military historian.

What military experience I do have in in the US Military where kilts are not part of the uniform.

But I am now Regimental Kiltmaker to the Canadian Scottish Regt.

Current kilts for the C Scot R have no fringe for the enlisted ranks, fringe for Officers.

[OC Richard]

Boy that's a good question.

There are several aspects of modern civilian kilts which differ from old Scottish military kilts. I would guess that, tradition and conservatism being what they were in the old Scottish regiments, that the traditional Scottish military kilts preserve an older approach to kiltmaking.

On old Scottish kilts from the Scottish Highland regiments you have
1) grass green binding around the top regardless of tartan
2) no fringe
3) 27" length regardless of the height of the wearer
4) no belt loops
5) distinctive 2-prong buckles
6) pleated to the line

and on top of those things, three of the five old Highland regiments had boxpleated kilts. Only the Gordon Highlanders used kilt pins.

When civilian kilts started putting on fringe, and pleating to the sett, and putting on belt loops, etc etc are all good questions.

[Domehead]

When civilian kilts started putting on fringe, and pleating to the sett, and putting on belt loops, etc etc are all good questions.

Thanks for your detailed response. Despite the fact, as of yet, we don't know when civilian detailing came into being, it is reasonable to assume these were tailored responses to the demands of the public?

[Domehead]

Current kilts for the C Scot R have no fringe for the enlisted ranks, fringe for Officers.

Is the distinction between the Enlisted / Officer kilts a new regulation, or something traditionally observed in Canadian Services?

[Glen]

Does the London and Toronto Scottish have a fringe on their kilts?

[artificer]

Does the London and Toronto Scottish have a fringe on their kilts?

Their kilts have a blue fringe on.



ith:

[figheadair]

Thanks for your detailed response. Despite the fact, as of yet, we don't know when civilian detailing came into being, it is reasonable to assume these were tailored responses to the demands of the public?

Not at all. I can't think of a case where a fashion detail arose because of public demand. The public choose from what is available and in this case it would have been because a particular maker added a fringe, the idea was copied and some people, not me, liked it.

Their kilts have a blue fringe on.ith:

Indeed they do. This one is pre-WWI

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I thought I would copy my post from the other current thread with a similar topic here, as well.

I'd ask what style will you construct first? If box-pleated, I'd say no fringe. The MacDuff c.1800 from the Museum had no fringe. I'd like to see the Gordon Highlander c.1796, but I can't imagine it did either. If you are doing something more "contemporary" (relative, of course) then have at it.

The Gordon kilt being referred to is the oldest known surviving tailored kilt for which we have a date. The aprons on that kilt were self-fringed. That is, there was no tailoring or shaping to the apron edge, it was just cut straight and fringed. So yes, it was fringed, but not in the same way modern kilts are fringed.

The MacDuff kilt you mention which is a civilian kilt from the same era also has no shaping to the outer apron edge -- it's just straight -- but in this case the edge was finished with a hem, and there is no fringe.

The oldest kilts I have seen that have any kind of shaping to the apron edge have no fringe. I try to base the stylistic features of my kilts as much as possible on early tailored kilts, so that's why most of the kilts I make have no fringe. However, I'm glad to make kilts with a fringe upon request.

Looking back through Bob Martin's All About Your Kilt, which has a catalog of many of the older kilts from museums and other collections that we know about, he doesn't really mention whether any of them have a fringe or not, with one or two exception -- for example, both the Gordon kilt previously mentioned as well as a Forbes kilt c. mid-19th century he mentions are self-fringed. In a few of the kilts he has photographed, one can easily see the apron is finished with no fringe, though in most of the photos the apron edge is not visible. In the photos where one can clearly see the outer apron, most have no fringe -- examples would include a MacLean of Duart kilt c. 1820, and a Fraser kilt, post 1829.

The Munro tartan kilt on display in the Scottish Tartans Museum, from the early 19th century, has no fringe.

The oldest kilt I am personally aware of in which the apron fringe was added as a separate peice, the way most modern kilt fringes are done (as opposed to simply being an extension of the cloth in the apron) is from the 79th NY Cameron regiment, c. 1860. Bob Martin has photos of one of these kilts, which were made by NY City dress makers, and you can see the pattern of the tartan in the fringe does not match the pattern of the tartan on the apron, which would only be the case if the kilt makers were sewing in a separate piece of tartan for the fringe and were not careful in matching the pattern.

Doing a quick scan through all the MacLeay portraits c. 1865, I note that the outer apron edge is clearly visible in many of these portraits, and there seems to be no preference for fringe or no fringe. I didn't do a formal count, but it seems that there is just as many of one as the other. Though I do note that on the kilts which do sport a fringe, it is a rather simple affair -- just a single fringe, not overly long, which is exactly the way I make my apron fringes when asked to do so. None of this double or triple fringe affair which is the norm on most modern kilts today.

As for my personal preference, I would say I have a slight bias towards no fringe, though I do own and wear kilts of both varieties. When I am making a kilt for myself, whether I add a fringe or not really just comes down to what mood I am in and a personal judgment of what I think would look good on that particular kilt. I will say that none of the four yard box pleated kilts I have made for myself have had a fringe. When making kilts for myself with higher yardages, whether box pleated or knife pleated, I've included a fringe maybe half the time.

[Domehead]

"Not at all. I can't think of a case where a fashion detail arose because of public demand. The public choose from what is available and in this case it would have been because a particular maker added a fringe, the idea was copied and some people, not me, liked it." - Figheadair

Thanks for your input, indeed everyone's input. Considering the above, is it possible to discern which direction options may have traveled?
Meaning...

M.A.C. Newsome spoke of "self-fringed" aprons arising from simple sheared aprons leaving the tailor's table. It is reasonable that becomes an option for the public to select. What of a husband who demands his wife afix buttons for braces, or belt loops for stout gut, etc. Is this scenario likely? If so, is it possible to determine that these features became options for selection, originating from the highland homestead?