Chesterfield Coat?

[CeilidhDoc]

So I am still in the process of assembling my kit in a manner that allows me to wear the kilt to anything from a casual afternoon to a white tie function.

For black and white tie attire, the usual non-highland overcoat is a Chesterfield Coat. I searched on this here at X Marks and got only 2 threads that mostly discussed the Inverness Cape.

Now, I have an Inverness rain cape that is well made. I would wear it to highland games in the rain, or to some functions around my area casually if raining, but here in the USA heavy wool Inverness Capes most certainly give off a "I'm wearing a Sherlock Holmes period piece costume" vibe, at least IMHO. I am sure opinions vary and I hope none take offense to that as none is intended. I have seen many beautiful Inverness Capes, I just am not sure I personally could pull off wearing one here in the USA if I was out for a night at the opera in highland attire, or attending a benefit ball, etc.

SO, I am looking at appropriate alternatives to the Inverness Cape for the purpose of wearing as an overcoat with formal highland attire, either black or white tie. There would be the added bonus that such an overcoat could be used as a nice dressy coat for smart business look highland attire as well (if I am careful when I choose to wear it since a velvet collar can be a bit much for those types of occasions).

The only problem is that I have never seen anyone wearing the kilt under a Chesterfield Coat. Maybe I just need to get out more.

What do you all think of this notion? I am assuming that the coat would need to come mid-calf like a proper formal Inverness Cape, which is a bit longer than many Chesterfield Coats are sold these days. I was picturing it in nice charcoal tweed with a velvet collar in a traditional formal look but it would seem to me that to look nice it would certainly need to be longer than the bottom of the kilt so top of the calf would seem the minimum length to me with mid-calf being perhaps more suitable.

So my questions to the forum are:

1) Is this an appropriate overcoat for highland attire or is this a kilt-clad no-no? I realize that highland attire is free-wear and all the usual caveats but I'm speaking to the kilt police here as my purpose is for formal functions where do's and don'ts make a more critical difference in deciding what to put on. As MoR has mentioned before, with formal attire the point is to blend in and do it with aplomb rather than being remembered for an out of place component to your attire. Highland wear is already a stand-out most of the time where I am located so I tend to be more minimalistic and traditional/classic in my approach to wearing the kilt to formal functions as a rule of thumb anyway.

2) If it is, then does anybody have photos of themselves wearing the kilt under a Chesterfield Overcoat? I would like to see how you did it if so. If you think it is appropriate but with some specific caveats ("Have it made like this, not like that...," etc.) I would like to hear your opinions on that as well.

3) If the general feeling is that a Chesterfield coat should not be worn with highland attire, does the group feel that there is another acceptable alternative to the Inverness Cape for a formal overcoat or is that the only option?

I realize that the impressions of someone wearing an Inverness Cape may vary significantly from country to country. Were I living in Scotland I'm not sure I would have the same reservations about the Inverness Cape but living here in the USA is a bit different and I am loathe to ever have my kilt outfits come across to anyone at events I attend as a "costume." I'm out to rock the kilt like James Bond, not Sherlock Holmes (hats off to Robert Downey Jr. though for pulling off a James Bond-esque Sherlock Holmes variant--for the sake of this discussion though let's leave that out of it).

OK, have at it. I am quite interested in hearing opinions on this. As always, if I missed a thread that already debated this then feel free to point me to it with my apologies. I tried to search prior to posting and did not see an answer to this one.

Slainte

[Andrews Son]

Just googled chesterfield coat and its quite a thin style coat. Its very smart looking, have u you tried it on with a kilt, maybe a pic if u you have the coat. I just wonder would there be a bulge where the sporran sits and tighten up at the hips. Sorry im not much help but sure someone will chime in with good info.
Gavin

[MacLowlife]

IMHO, the real question is not Chesterfield vs Inverness, but Black vs Brown, as most Inverness capes I have seen ( of the non-waterproof variety) are decidedly brown. And Brown is Not Very Dressy.

But MY preliminary question is, what do you wear when you are otherwise very dressed up? I would follow that one with, How Cold Is It? Personally, I have two options for highland wear top/overcoats: 1) My black cashmere double breasted overcoat, which I also wear for Saxon formal occasions on the coldest nights- it extends below the knee and is half - belted in the back, and 2) Nothing at all. Sometimes I go with 2(b), which is an umbrella.

Let's face it, a topcoat is a nice touch, but it is one more thing to keep track of. You have to pay the coat check person and you have to remember it and it is mostly in the way. If you are traveling several hundred feet or more in 40 degree temperatures, it is probably a good idea. Otherwise, I tend to do without.

But I think you may really want some kind of coat, in which case, may I suggest one of the new-ish Charcoal Covert Coats? If you are of average height, you can order a long, just to get another inch or so of length. The charcoal covert cloth is fairly dressy, but not limited to evening wear. I had thought I might find one with a velvet collar, but the two I have just seen ( C Tyrwhitt and TM Lewin) are both velvet-free. Of course, you can have your tailor add the velvet collar when you have him take up the sleeves. It has a nice slim shape and will look stylish with whatever you choose to wear it. Just be sure to negotiate whether the sizing contemplates being worn over a jacket or a sweater.

You may find another thread in which heavy coats for daytime wear are discussed. Bridge coats, greatcoats, and various military surplus wooly blanket coats are popular, but I suspect they verge on the Sherlockian Costumey effect you are trying to avoid. And they are often Brown or Olive Drab. Or have rows of buttons like a Doorman's Dream.

But, come to think of it, you might consider some full length fur coat that you already have hanging around- bear or raccoon or the like.

[Grizzled Ian]

Good morning doc,
Can we tease out your question a bit more please?
To guide the answers you may receive, perhaps you could put a little more context around the circumstances when you would wear an overcoat. It seems you are focusing on white or black tie, so that implies night-time.
Is the purpose of your overcoat then to keep inclement weather from spoiling your attire, or keep out a pea-souper, or to keep you warm until you arrive at your venue? Or is the purpose confined to a desire to have something to hand to your host, or a cloak room attendant, to hang up when you arrive?
How do you travel to your function? Do you drive yourself or take a taxi to the front door; drive to a parking station and walk a short distance; walk the whole way; take public transport?
There must be a good reason why you want to keep your kilt covered from view. But please be assured that I am not having a go at you personally with what might appear impertinent questions: this seems a good opportunity for those who do have answers to respond not only to your query, but also to give more general guidance to readers.

[Llama]

I usually just wear my kilt with a mid-thigh chesterfield if it's properly cold outside. I take it off once I get to wherever I'm going, anyway.

I have an old brown chesterfield coat that has seen better days and the lining is mostly dead. I've thought of cutting it to slightly longer than Argyle jacket length.

[CeilidhDoc]

Grizzled--

No reason to keep the kilt hidden from view. Most often I would go with MacLowlife's 2 or 2b, meaning no coat or no coat with an umbrella.

I have a long navy wool toggle coat that I have occasionally busted out when I have been en route to something nice in my kilt and it happened to be really cold. But the toggle coat is just not dressy enough for formal occasions according to most black or white tie guides.

Normally, I could really care less what anyone else thinks but I have a few exceptions to this rule (which in certain pubs in Glasgow might be referred to as the "Git tae f**k!" rule):

1) I'm at a wedding or another event that is supposed to have all eyes on someone else. I never want to steal attention from said party on "their day." This is not really what I'm looking at here though because I would rarely attend a wedding cold enough to warrant the overcoat during the day and that rule therefore doesn't really affect my choice of overcoat.

2) Black and white tie events where the dress code is strict and people will actually really care. In this case I'm not concerned about stealing attention, just trying to avoid negative attention or being judged as ignorant of the dress code. This is the case I'm going after here. (Addendum: To clarify--The reason I care what people think here is to represent the kilt well to the uninitiated. If many eyes are on me at an event because I am the only man in a kilt, I had better do it well or not do it at all IMHO. Wear it with pride and wear it in a way that is both my own and sensitive to highland tradition)

In pretty much any other situation I can think up I will wear my kilt where and when I damn well please and all onlookers who think poorly on it can think what they wish and I don't really care in the least.

But getting back to this situation and to answer the questions:

I would only wear it when the weather was cold enough to demand a coat over the kilt AND I am dressed in formal highland attire.

Typically I would most likely drive myself to these events. I don't let Valets park my car (not because I am being a snob or babying the car, but because it is new enough and tempting enough to valets AND the accelerator pedal is so different from other cars AND the car is huge and very easy to take out a rim or a side mirror going in a tight space even for me as the owner) so I typically will either drop off my wife at the door and then park the car and walk back to the venue/entrance however far that is or my wife and I will both park the car and walk to the venue from where we park.

If I was going to the opera or a play or something then I would be walking a number of city blocks in a dark, windy, and damp San Francisco at night in most cases.

On rare occasions I might be taking a limo, taxi, or other hired car. On even rarer occasions I might take the train but typically it stops running too early to be practical to get me home.

Sometimes I travel to visit people and have an event to attend in colder places. My parents still live outside Pittsburgh, PA and in the winter there it is pretty cold.

IF I got lucky enough to be in Scotland and have an invitation to an event then I would wear this if it wasn't the middle of Summer although when I was at St. Andrews I had a long walk back to New Hall from most Ceilidhs in town and I never wore a topcoat with my kilt black tie and it was Fall-Winter semester. Having said that, as December approached and in early January that walk back was really pretty damned cold. I suppose the Single Malt kept me warm on those occasions.

So to summarize, I'm talking about formal occasions where it is also cold and I might really need an overcoat. I suppose yes it would be classy to have something to hand to the coat check but really I'm thinking of occasions where I need to be warm for the walk from the car and I am dressed formally. Not for hours of warmth, but maybe 20-30 minutes rather than a 30 second walk after being dropped off at the door.

So I want to look classy and stay within guidelines but I need the overcoat to be functional as well. There is no need specifically to hide the kilt, just to keep warm.

I was looking at a semi custom or custom coat from a place like this, for instance:

http://www.tweed-jacket.com/mens_overcoat.html

I hope that helps.

My thinking was along the lines of a charcoal tweed with a black velvet collar and 3 pocket configuration with the classic "ticket pocket." These are often cut above the knee these days as a default but looking at Inverness Capes they tend to go to mid-calf which is where I got that length, but if it was felt to be dressy enough I suppose a shorter length that showed off the kilt would be fine as well. Just not in between. If the point is to stay warm, longer seems the more practical choice.

Covert coat type material is certainly an option.

Although I like the formal look of double-breasted coats personally, the typical classic Chesterfield is single breasted if I am not mistaken. Also, a single breasted opening would likely lend itself better to attempting to reach in and get something if one needed to access their sporran with the coat on.

Let me know if you need more data. I really appreciate the opinions and responses!

Slainte

[CeilidhDoc]

Wow do I know how to clear a room.

I think I can hear the crickets...

[Nathan]

Coat etiquette and fashion in eastern Canada is rooted first and foremost in practicality. As such, I cant say this advice is best for Los Altos, California. For the same reasons you mentioned I don't feel any rush to get an Inverness Cape. In the Canadian military, we wore the standard issue military overcoat with our kilts. I do the same in civilian life. I have a couple of nice wool full length overcoats and a black trench coat that I wear with the fancy duds as the weather demands it.

I also have a grey wool London Fog car coat that I like to wear with less formal outfits. It's great with the kilt to my eye as it shows off plenty of tartan but still keeps me warm and sporran access is simple.

It's not the traditional choice in the Highlands but, given where you live, nobody looking at you will know or care. I choose the same overcoat I would wear with trousers and have never given it a second thought.

So if you want to dress like they do in the Highlands, get an Inverness Cape or two. One for formal and one for tweed. If you want to dress more like your neighbours, get coats like they wear and Bob's your uncle. MacLowlife's advice is sound.

[CeilidhDoc]

Thanks for posting your take on it. Much appreciated.

Slainte

[brewerpaul]

Not sure I can really add anything to this discussion because where I live most people never dress up beyond Dockers and a sweater. I understand your desire for a certain look, Ive been revamping my whole wardrobe ever since I started wearing my kilts over 2 years ago. My prior style was jeans and an array of t-shirts, henleys and a few button shirts. The rest was sports gear like Mountain Hardwear jackets, polartec and such. Ive had very few, even now, times Ive needed to dress up to the 9's. With the kilt Ive looked to change virtually everything from winter coats to summer button down shirts. Granted there are the days of my hiking kilt and t-shirt but when I wear my kilts I tend to like to dress up. With no real Black Tie events presenting themself to me I dont go to far into the high end. I do sport a charcoal argyle with waistcoat and now have a herringbone kilt jacket and waistcoat I made. What I wanted for winter when kilted was something besides the Goretex jackets I own. For the days Im in my breeks or even jeans/dockers I have a long charcoal herringbone trench coat that fits the bill and is quite classy. What I find turns heads where I live is the Inverness cape I made. Ill include a couple photos.

What Im getting from your needs is something a bit more classy in an evening coat that can be worn with a kilt. I found I wouldnt be comfortable with my trench coat and a kilt, the look just didnt appeal to me. I opted for an Inverness which means on my budget I had to make it myself. Looking at my cape Im have to agree some people give me the Sherlock Holmes speil but I quell that by explaining the difference between the Holmes cloak and a cape. Perhaps a cape made of a fine black wool might fit your needs and still be classy for the business look. I guess Id wear mine to pretty much any event in my neck of the woods but if I was in the big city with opera and black tie events I too would look for a classy black outerwear to put on. You might dig into having a black Inverness made, or just conisder it. I think it could work well. You are already turning heads wearing the kilt so why not wear the cape too. I personally just think the cape goes better with the kilt than a coat would, but that is just my opinion. If I were going to such events I think I would make or have made a black or charcoal cape. You could always accent it with a deep burgundy lining.

Here are a couple photos of my cape. it was made from a full modification of the Simplicity Sherlock Holmes costume cape pattern. I looked online and compared it to real Inverness capes and went from there. Outer fabric is heavy weight houndstooth wool, inner fabric brown light suit or pant weight wool and laminated in between is breathable waterproof/windproof nylon for ultimate winter protection. You will have to excuse the fact I am in my breeks. The day was only 13F which doesnt stop me from wearing a kilt, but the wind was 20+mph with 25+mph gusts. Yes I did make a matching fore and aft to go with it.





I hope you figure out what you want. I just know longer coats, kilts and me dont mix which is why I made the cape. I hated wearing my long polartec or Northface with the kilt and my argyle jacket, it just didnt do the highland wear justice.