A Thread of History

[J Ross]

As a new member I have found it refreshing that these forums focus on inclusion instead of exclusivity. I find it nice to enjoy the common interest we all share in a civilized and respecting group. As someone who tends to get obsessive about any number of subjects joining the forum has allowed me to enjoy this interest and not drown in the details.

Having said that, my family's history still calls to me for more research and I would love to be able to link history with my first kilt (I will place the order next week).

My family has been able to trace our history to Glamis, Angus County, Scotland. John Ross (b. 1693-d. 1759) was Jacobite captured in Preston 1715, transported as an indentured servant to Virginia and shortly thereafter freed by his sympathetic debt holder.

My first kilt was always going to be a Ross Modern Red tartan, but as I continue to pick apart my personal history I have questions that I would love to answer regardless of the effect it would have on my selection.

Does anyone know of a good resource to trace the diaspora of the Ross clan? I'd like to know what caused my supposed highland ancestor to be in Angus. My gut thoughts are that he followed other Jacobites. John Ross was not loyal to Clan Ross per se. Most Ross' were not Jacobite or did not fight in 1715. My other thought is that perhaps we are not highland Ross' at all despite the only male names in my family have been John, James and David for 300 years.

The other loop I've been thrown is that once in Virginia John Ross attended a Presbyterian church possibly. I try not to be overly speculative and enjoy supposing a narrative for my ancestors, but the actual paper trail has been cold for a while.

As I continue to enjoy the forums and soon my kilt I'd love to get some suggestions of books or feedback to keep my thinking over the next couple of months.

[MacRobert's Reply]

I can be of no help whatsoever in your quest but the father of one of my grandchildren is John Ross.

[J Ross]

Perhaps the content of this thread has little cohesiveness. Let's switch direction, shall we?

Were Jacobite tartans used during military campaigns? I have found websites citing a particular tartan was used during the 1715 campaigns. I find unlikely, but could be wrong, that a somewhat ragtag group of men would have a uniform tartan.

I have evidence supporting that my ancestor was a Jacobite soldier, but not that he was a member of Clan Ross or even from the same area. Just curious what other people's knowledge and thoughts are.

[Nathan]

Perhaps the content of this thread has little cohesiveness. Let's switch direction, shall we?

Were Jacobite tartans used during military campaigns? I have found websites citing a particular tartan was used during the 1715 campaigns. I find unlikely, but could be wrong, that a somewhat ragtag group of men would have a uniform tartan.

I have evidence supporting that my ancestor was a Jacobite soldier, but not that he was a member of Clan Ross or even from the same area. Just curious what other people's knowledge and thoughts are.

Not sure what you mean by Jacobite tartans. Clan tartans per say didn't really exist until long after Culloden and began as a revisionist exaggeration. They have taken hold now but I don't think one tartan is Jacobite and another is not aside from the fact that if the clan the tartan is now associated with was Jacobite, the tartan can be viewed as representing a Jacobite clan.

On the other hand, the Government sett was being worn on the British side at the time, so Blackwatch (later also Campbell) is decidedly not Jacobite.

In terms of association with Clan Ross, there are many plausible explanations about how someone with the same surname would be on the other side of that battle from the chief of the name. They could still be a member of the same clan as well.

A few possibilities.

1) Mr. MacOnion marries Miss MacCarrot and moves to MacCarrot Clan territory because Miss MacCarrot had no brothers and inherited the use of a better piece of land. Mr. MacOnion lives on MacCarrot territory and so pledges allegiance to the Chief of the Clan MacCarrot. The MacOnions support the Hanoverian Crown but the MacCarrots support the Stuarts, hence, Mr. MacOnion fights for the MacCarrots.

2) Mr. MacOnion doesn't agree with the chief of the MacOnions because he feels a strong fealty to the rightful hereditary King regardless of religious denomination and so moves to Jacobite territory to fight for king and country.

3) Mr. MacOnion happens to be named MacOnion but he's named after a different MacOnion than the Clan MacOnion. He's descended from A Mr. Onion MacCarrot of MacCarrot and so is a member of Clan MacCarrot while the MacOnions are named after Onion MacCelery of Other Glen.

4) In your case, perhaps the Ross Clan who are from the Earldom of Ross just happen to share a surname that he came to another way, perhaps because of having a red haired ancestor from a Germanic speaking region.

These are all possibilities, but I don't know for sure in your particular case.

[Domehead]

The "Jacobite" tartan to which you refer was actually a silk scarf belonging to a female Jacobite sympathizer. It was first illustrated by William & Andrew Smith's Authenticated Tartans of the Clans and Families of Scotland, 1850

Legendarily, it was not a coordinated "regimental" denominator but political iconography.

It was sighted in other tartanological MSs. However, in the "Library Edition" of Henry Whyte and W & AK Johnston's The Clans & Septs of Scotland, 1906, they specifically sighted the Smith Bros and outlined the female Jacobite legend.

Regarding this specific sett, Donald C. Stewart, in The Setts of the Scottish Tartans, 1950, pg. 106, detailed a theory about construction in Spanish silk of Scottish setts and the possible reintroduction of original ideas from these same Mediterranean manufacturers.

James D. Scarlett in Tartan: The Highland Textile, 1980, denoted setts (439)-(445) under a section headed Jacobite Relics, pg. 172, which collates thread counts of tartans recovered during the '45, directly associated with Prince Charles Edward Stuart.

Domehead

[ThistleDown]

You might also want to keep in mind that deRos is not the same as Ross but pronounced almost identically. Since names usually have been recorded as they sound, Ross and Ros and Roz and Rose can be heard much the same, but refer to entirely different genealogies.

[Mac y]

I mostly just read here, but thought I may offer some thoughts as one who is in a similar position.

To have some solid information dating back to the 1600s is more than most may have I would imagine, although to get a better picture of your particular Ross being of the Clan Ross, as oppose to a variation of one of the names that has been previously mentioned, may prove difficult since you are already in the 17th century. That said, in my own family history a Mckenzie born in 18th century Beauly managed to marry and live out her life in Cruden, a small fishing village a decent trek away. People move, albeit it was more difficult and less common then.

Unfortunately, I cant offer help, but being in a similar boat, I look forward to see some of the responses to your post. Most especially the Scottish members as they may have more particular information or can point to sources that discuss the common moves and migrations within Scotland during that time period. In my head I am thinking, in regards to the United States, of the Great Migration or the Migration during the Dust Bowl. These events may not be as commonly known to those outside the US-dare I say they may not be as commonly known within the US either, but might there be instances in Scotland that parallel.

[figheadair]

On the other hand, the Government sett was being worn on the British side at the time, so Blackwatch (later also Campbell) is decidedly not Jacobite.

By the time I assume you mean 1746. The Jacobite era dates from the last quarter of the 17th century and the Gov't tartan certainly didn't exist then. In fact, there's actually no surviving contemporary evidence it being wore before c1758.

The "Jacobite" tartan to which you refer was actually a silk scarf belonging to a female Jacobite sympathizer. It was first illustrated by William & Andrew Smith's Authenticated Tartans of the Clans and Families of Scotland, 1850.

It was sighted in other tartanological MSs. However, in the "Library Edition" of Henry Whyte and W & AK Johnston's The Clans & Septs of Scotland, 1906, they specifically sighted the Smith Bros and outlined the female Jacobite legend.

Regarding this specific sett, Donald C. Stewart, in The Setts of the Scottish Tartans, 1950, pg. 106, detailed a theory about construction in Spanish silk of Scottish setts and the possible reintroduction of original ideas from these same Mediterranean manufacturers.

I've actually had my hands on said silk sash. There's absolutely no way of proving that it is associated with the '45 era and my own opinion is that it's more likely to be first quarter 19th century.

[tripleblessed]

You might also want to keep in mind that deRos is not the same as Ross but pronounced almost identically. Since names usually have been recorded as they sound, Ross and Ros and Roz and Rose can be heard much the same, but refer to entirely different genealogies.

A very relevant point, especially when the clerks were English and the names were spoken by Scots. In one of my lines,
a soldier sold after the battle of Worcester was identified on the list by a name apparently invented by the clerk. His
will and family in Virginia gave different usage.

In another of my lines, the names Ross and Rose alternated for about six generations. Each generation seemed consistent within the usage of the father, but the son would use the other. No explanation, and we've not been able to get that line back across the water.

Keep digging and enjoying the search. There's more available than some realize. A couple of my lines disappear from
tracking in the colonies, others can be traced to the Isles, but no specific place, some to galloglaigh lines, some to the Normans who arrived with David, some are known back over a thousand years. Rare, that, but it does happen.

Have fun.

[Domehead]

I've actually had my hands on said silk sash. There's absolutely no way of proving that it is associated with the '45 era and my own opinion is that it's more likely to be first quarter 19th century.

Figheadair,

Brilliant! Thank you for the clarification. It would have been better if I'd written "was reputed to be a silk scarf..."
Likely, I'll never get the chance to handle the specimens you have.

My tartanological education is "limited" to the conventional canon, your specific publications (incl. other contributors to the discipline) and collective cited & sourced material.
Hence, my very academic approach.

Thank you again.
I sincerely appreciate your contributions.

Slainte,
Domehead