Re: Tartan Question

[Pat Stephens]

Through a twisting, complex, yet interesting story my mother's family is beginning to regain its genetic history. Specifically it has been kept in our oral history of being from Ireland, along with some discussion of Welsh, the DNA testing helped confirm the Irish heritage yet the genetic results also noted that Scotland was represented (along with English). While it took some time, I believe I have discerned the Irish and English. However I was a bit perplexed with the Scottish until I looked beyond my direct DNA results, along with my mother's grandfather side (surname Stephens), and thought of my mother's grandmother side which has the surname Sooter.

When I looked up the Sooter name the first historical placement I got was Scotland, namely from the Angus part of the Tayside region of the Scottish Highlands (please see: https://www.houseofnames.com/sooter-family-crest). I found this to be very interesting and exciting, especially in light of my Irish heritage, and while I directly found data linking the Sooter name to this history I often found the spelling of Sooter to be varied, such as Souter and Soutar. I am okay with these variants as I understand the lack of spelling consistency through time.

Nevertheless, when I discovered my possible Scottish ancestry I immediately thought of getting a tartan due to my owning kilts (to date: Saffron and tactikilts). When I tried to find a kilt linked to the family Sooter I only found one listing and that was for Souter/Soutar (please see: https://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/Sou...r-Souter/31678). While I may be intellectually aright with the answer to spelling variations, I was curious what you all may think of this? Would it still be acceptable to get the Souter/Soutar tartan even with my mother's grandmother side being named Sooter?

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts.

[ThistleDown]

Welcome to the forum, Pat.

Genealogical research is so rewarding. Sooter/souter/suter is simply Scots for shoemaker or cobbler and, of course, there have always been many of those all over the country. It's probably not a good idea to attach yourself to any family offered by the names-searching companies; arms belong to the individuals they are registered to, and not to all of the name. In the case of Sooter, you may find that an ancestor traveled from the Lowlands to Ireland in the plantation times.

The tartan that Scotweb refers to as Souter was actually designed in the 21C for a particular family. I hope our resident tartan expert Peter Macdonald (figheadair) checks into this thread to give you good advise and direction. If not, then find him in our 'Community' and send him a PM.

Enjoy your time with XMarks.

[jfraser]

Through a twisting, complex, yet interesting story my mother's family is beginning to regain its genetic history. Specifically it has been kept in our oral history of being from Ireland, along with some discussion of Welsh, the DNA testing helped confirm the Irish heritage yet the genetic results also noted that Scotland was represented (along with English). While it took some time, I believe I have discerned the Irish and English. However I was a bit perplexed with the Scottish until I looked beyond my direct DNA results, along with my mother's grandfather side (surname Stephens), and thought of my mother's grandmother side which has the surname Sooter.

When I looked up the Sooter name the first historical placement I got was Scotland, namely from the Angus part of the Tayside region of the Scottish Highlands (please see: https://www.houseofnames.com/sooter-family-crest). I found this to be very interesting and exciting, especially in light of my Irish heritage, and while I directly found data linking the Sooter name to this history I often found the spelling of Sooter to be varied, such as Souter and Soutar. I am okay with these variants as I understand the lack of spelling consistency through time.

Nevertheless, when I discovered my possible Scottish ancestry I immediately thought of getting a tartan due to my owning kilts (to date: Saffron and tactikilts). When I tried to find a kilt linked to the family Sooter I only found one listing and that was for Souter/Soutar (please see: https://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/Sou...r-Souter/31678). While I may be intellectually aright with the answer to spelling variations, I was curious what you all may think of this? Would it still be acceptable to get the Souter/Soutar tartan even with my mother's grandmother side being named Sooter?

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts.

Stephens is a common enough name in Morayshire, Banffshire and Aberdeenshire. In the old days quite a number of them were involved in the fishing industry. Could have a connection to MacTavish?

[Pat Stephens]

Thank you all for your thoughts as it is most appreciated!

This journey to rediscover my roots has been a fascinating one and very rewarding. There is so much to say on the subject yet, interestingly, the more science-based DNA genealogical test, Geno 2.0, placed my mother's side possibly into Northern Ireland as far back as 19,000+-2,000 years ago, and my maternal haplogroup (H2a5b) has possible Norwegian DNA (I was verified to have Scandinavian DNA by Family Tree DNA which makes sense as Norway was known to viking into Ireland as early as 800 AD or so). As I also have English DNA, I am thinking that the Stephens clan came to Ireland and married into my family that was already there (explains my DNA mix of Irish and English).

Yet, as noted, the realization of where I got my Scottish DNA results came when I thought about my mother's grandmother side but the only site to show more formally where this side may have originated was from something like a name searching company, which I agree is a little uncomfortable but I have nothing else to go off of. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Along that line, I would not have known to connect Sooter towards MacTavish. This is very interesting, yet I have no idea how to make a connection such as this, thus how does one do so?

I will be sure to send Mr. Macdonald (figheadair) a PM.

THANK YOU, everyone! I hope this is not silly or rude to say, yet I do feel very honored to be Irish, Scottish, and English. Plus, if Welsh is right for the English DNA then I guess I can get that Celtic tattoo to show my heritage (Irish, Scottish, and Welsh).

[jfraser]

[QUOTE=Pat Stephens;1322654]Thank you all for your thoughts as it is most appreciated!

Along that line, I would not have known to connect Sooter towards MacTavish. This is very interesting, yet I have no idea how to make a connection such as this, thus how does one do so?

Sorry, something got lost in translation as they say. If you are referring to my reply I was suggesting that Stephens might have a connection to MacTavish. If you search Clan MacTavish you can see that Stephens could be a Sept of that clan. Of course, Sept is not without its problems in proving such.

[Pat Stephens]

[QUOTE=jfraser;1322688]

Thank you all for your thoughts as it is most appreciated!
Sorry, something got lost in translation as they say. If you are referring to my reply I was suggesting that Stephens might have a connection to MacTavish. If you search Clan MacTavish you can see that Stephens could be a Sept of that clan. Of course, Sept is not without its problems in proving such.

No worries at all and I am sorry that I was thinking more of my Sooter side rather than Stephens in this case. However, I took a look at the MacTavish clans as I am not familiar with septs and it is neat to both find the Stephens name there but also a direct connection of the clan MacTavish to Ireland (http://clanmactavish.org/family-names-septs). Yet, as you note I would not know any way to verify a connection as a sept.

Yet, overall, I also still would not have any idea as how to narrow down the correct tartan for my family (Sooter or Stephens).

Ta!

[Father Bill]

Respectfully, don't get too hung up on it with DNA and all kinds of genealogical research. It's fun, but it can also be dangerous; you might find out something that's upsetting or disappointing for a number of reasons. In fact, I've been told that with current DNA testing an interesting statistic has emerged that throughout history in any given generation and any given year, somewhere close to 7% of folks didn't have the father that they thought they did. Mama... well generally that was known, but even in my own family and also that of my wife, one known case of a Mama in each wasn't whom people thought she was. Think of all of the people throughout history who have worn the bend sinister and you'll perhaps understand.

My own Scottish search is perhaps a case in point. My mother had always said her family were Saxons. If you had met my Mum you would have agreed - you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, peaches and cream, the whole works. Her surname however, actually turned out to be Norman ao I did some really simple research and when I traced it, indeed they had been in the county she claimed as her heritage in England for a century or so, but before that, nothing!

So I traced it further out of curiosity, and lo and behold, about half of the people of that surname had left the only other place in what is Great Britain where they had been previously found, about five years before they showed up where Mum said they were. It turned out that they had come from the traditional and historical territory of Clan Sinclair, and while they are not listed as an "official sept" (a concept that is really quite recent historically speaking) it must be remembered that the clan system was designed largely to recruit warriors and if you married in, you were in!

To suggest that in four centuries that the surname had been found in Caithness and the Orkneys, none of the male line from which I was apparently descended had ever married a local girl would be far beyond ludicrous. That being the case, the assumption that I was inevitably a clansman was only exceeded by the statement of our clan Chief Malcolm, who has written that if you share the goals and aims of the clan, of course you are a member.

It's enough for me and it's important to realize that this is my own perspective and I'm comfortable with it, but as my expert geneologist and historian friend said, "Bill, they didn't keep records of peasants and sadly, you qualify, but if you think with that history you're not a Sinclair, you're in la-la land," so I've thrown my lot in with the clan, consider myself a member, wear the tartan, and have been welcomed by all as a long-lost cousin... of indeterminate but never disputed lineage.

So relax. It's not as big a thing as some folks (and admittedly some clans and some clan chiefs) like to make it. In this day and age, anyone who honestly thinks they are utterly unrelated to any other given person is well deluded and self-deluded at that.

Enjoy and live a happy life with your own chosen delusions as I do.