Gov't Tartan Question

[kilted2000]

Just to check, Black Watch and Government Tartan 1A as worn by the Royal Regiment of Scotland and others are the same tartan, or am I mistaken? Is there any difference between them? Sett size? Anything?

[figheadair]

Just to check, Black Watch and Government Tartan 1A as worn by the Royal Regiment of Scotland and others are the same tartan, or am I mistaken? Is there any difference between them? Sett size? Anything?

The colour and threadcount combination are what makes a tartan unique. Change the colour - change the tartan but changing the shades does not change the tartan. That might seem obvious but it is something often misunderstood and confused. Things are not helped when, for historical reasons, the same tartan was used/adopted by different regiments and later, clans: 42nd (Black Watch); 78th (Fraser’s); 87th (Keith’s); 93rd (Sutherland); Campbell; Sutherland; Grant Htg; and Munro Htg.

Technically, a threadcount refers to the arrangement of lines in sequence that makes up a half sett (in a symmetrical pattern) necessary to reproduce the pattern. There is no such thing as a defined number of threads of each colour, nor are the proportions definitive. Sett size is dependent on the intended use of the cloth; large for a plaid, small for a tie, it doesn’t change the tartan. As an example, Wilsons of Bannockburn’s 1819 Key Pattern Book included nine settings for the 42nd tartan including those for plaids, fine kilts and coarse kilts. The tartan was the same but the sett size and proportions differed depending on the use. Here is a comparison of Wilsons’ settings for Officers’ Plaids, Fine Kilts, and Coarse Kilts.



The shades of the 42nd, later called the Government, tartan changed over the years form those produced with natural dyes and the later ones produced with chemical dyes. These four specimens from the Cockburn Collection (c.1820) show that there was no standardised shade or sett size.



In the 20th century the army had different shades and settings for different regiments. Government No.1 (Black Watch), Government No.1A (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders). When the RRS was formed different elements of the various antecedent regiments were incorporated into the new dress. For the kilt and tartan they adopted the Argylls’ box-pleat with Government No.1A.

[kilted2000]

In the 20th century the army had different shades and settings for different regiments. Government No.1 (Black Watch), Government No.1A (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders). When the RRS was formed different elements of the various antecedent regiments were incorporated into the new dress. For the kilt and tartan they adopted the Argylls’ box-pleat with Government No.1A.

So the tartan sold today by kiltmakers as 'Black Watch' is slightly different to the tartan the RRS uses?

[figheadair]

So the tartan sold today by kiltmakers as 'Black Watch' is slightly different to the tartan the RRS uses?

Well yes, sort of, except that there are no standardised shades for the commercial Black Watch tartan. Compare Lochcarron's heavy and lightweight version of the same tartan.

Heavy weight


Light weight


And then there's House of Edgar's version.


Lochcarron also weave Black Watch in Old Colours which most people, the chief included, call Campbell.

[OC Richard]

So the tartan sold today by kiltmakers as 'Black Watch' is slightly different to the tartan the RRS uses?

This question encompasses the colours, sett size, weight, quality, type of selvedge, etc.

I've not had a RRS kilt in my hands so I don't know about the weight or feel or quality of the cloth.

I would think it unlikely to be able to get cloth exactly like the RRS cloth commercially, as it almost certainly is bespoke and made under government contract.

There are piles of ex-army RRS kilts on EbayUK and the US Ebay all the time, and they're inexpensive as kilts go.

If one ever came up in my size, which is quite unlikely, I would buy it.

In any case not having one all I have are photos. Here's the top rear of a RRS kilt and a closeup of the fabric.

Note that the traditional army buckles and binding have been abandoned.



For comparison here's an unissued Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Other Ranks' kilt made by Thomas Gordon & Son, Glasgow.

It bears NATO code numbers.

You can see the traditional army thin stamped sheet-metal buckles on thin lacquered cotton tabs, and the traditional grass-green herringbone tape binding. (Cf the civilian-style buckles, painted black, on the RRS kilt above.)

I have read that the Other Ranks' kilts of the A&SH and Black Watch were made from the same cloth, just pleated differently. You can see that the green is a pretty normal shade.

I don't know the specific shades, but the Black Watch Officers' kilts look quite dark overall to me.

The A&SH Officers' kilts had the lighter moss-green similar to the new RRS kilts.

[OC Richard]

To get the RRS colour-scheme might mean having a bespoke weave done.

Simon Fraser University (British Columbia, Canada) did similar, having their Fraser tartan woven with "modern" dark blue but "ancient" red and green.

You could have Black Watch woven with "modern" blue and "ancient" green for the RRS look.

[figheadair]

I would think it unlikely to be able to get cloth exactly like the RRS cloth commercially, as it almost certainly is bespoke and made under government contract.

Yes, it is made under MOD Contract. Marton Mills currently weave this for the MOD.

[OC Richard]

Yes, it is made under MOD Contract. Marton Mills currently weave this for the MOD.

Thanks!

It's heartening to hear that the cloth is UK-made.

I seem to recall speculation, when the RRS was being created, that they might use lower-quality foreign-made cloth.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the size of the initial order of cloth for seven battalions.

I suppose that would be the largest single order of kilting tartan since 1914.

[OC Richard]

Just to check, Black Watch and Government Tartan 1A as worn by the Royal Regiment of Scotland and others are the same tartan, or am I mistaken? Is there any difference between them? Sett size? Anything?

At least with the colours, the Royal Regiment of Scotland tartan resembles the tartan worn by Senior Sergeants and Officers of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders pre-RRS.

The green is considerably lighter than the green worn by Black Watch Officers pre-RRS.

Here on the left is the Pipe Major of the A&SH pre-RRS, on the right is a member of the RRS.

You can see that the shade of green is similar, however note that the green band comes to a different point in regard to the selvedge.