Vest length question

[Kitfoxdave]

Is an Argyle vest (waistcoat) lower below the waist than a Prince Charlie vest (waistcoat)?
How much difference in a size 48 R?

Thanks!

[Jock Scot]

Don't forget if you have your kilt traditionally cut, the waistcoat length will be shorter than a waistcoat needed for the modern low cut "hipster" type kilt. At all costs the dreaded gap betwixt the waistcoat bottom and the waistband of the kilt needs to be avoided. Why? It looks dreadful!

[Kitfoxdave]

Don't forget if you have your kilt traditionally cut, the waistcoat length will be shorter than a waistcoat needed for the modern low cut "hipster" type kilt. At all costs the dreaded gap betwixt the waistcoat bottom and the waistband of the kilt needs to be avoided. Why? It looks dreadful!

Jock,
Be not afeared.... I wear most of my kilts (13/14) at the traditional waist... to avoid the dreaded gap! My sweet daughter (tailor to the stars) is going to work on making me some waistcoats... the only one I had on hand was my son's PC when she was taking measurements... there lies the reason for the quest for dimensional difference in the bottom of the Argyle compaired to the PC....

I do thank all that can provide this info!

[PassingW]

While I am not a tailor, it occurs to me that as your waistcoats will be bespoke, you can consider your options carefully. Your avatar suggests you may wear sporran hangars as opposed to a sporran belt. How will you wear your sporran when wearing a waistcoat? Typically, one does not wear a kilt belt with a waistcoat, so this may be a consideration. Sporran height (and suspension) may be a consideration when figuring waistcoat "hemline"? Perhaps your daughter might be able to connect with bespoke tailors/purveyors of highland wear for some advice? Best of luck.

[Kitfoxdave]

While I am not a tailor, it occurs to me that as your waistcoats will be bespoke, you can consider your options carefully. Your avatar suggests you may wear sporran hangars as opposed to a sporran belt. How will you wear your sporran when wearing a waistcoat? Typically, one does not wear a kilt belt with a waistcoat, so this may be a consideration. Sporran height (and suspension) may be a consideration when figuring waistcoat "hemline"? Perhaps your daughter might be able to connect with bespoke tailors/purveyors of highland wear for some advice? Best of luck.

As my waistline is reducing, (approximately 4 inches in the last 1-1/2 years, since I retired a few months ago, I am more active now that I am no longer in a cube farm and the reduction rate is picking up.) I plan on using a more traditional sporran belt / chain to resolve that issue...
The kilt belt itself is straight forward to modify. (already reduced it by 4 inches, and almost 1.5 inches more or two notches since then).

[Troglodyte]

The modern fashion for wearing the kilt slung low on the hips is causing a great deal of confusion and frustration - for both the maker and the wearer of traditonal Highland dress.

The waistcoat should be exactly that - a waist-length garment that meets the lower garment at the waist, leaving no gap. It is not a hip-coat..!

As trousers have, in the past 40 years or so, been worn (and so cut by fashion designers) steadily lower down to the hips, the waistcoat has been obliged to get longer to compensate. This has been carried over into Highland dress.

We are now at the gastly stage where the waistcoat is now as long as the jacket when offered as a combo' by Highland dress outfitters.

It sounds as if you have had the good sense to produce and nurture your own home-grown tailor, so, If I were in your position, this is what I would do.

Having put on my kilt as I normally wear it, with sporran in place, I would put on a waistcoat and position it (pull it up on the shoulders) so that the points are well clear of the sporran and strap, and get my tame tailor to take the relevant measurements.

The alternative, of course, is a wiastcoat cut flat across the bottom edge - this leaves plenty of room for the sporran (and is no doubt more convenient if you use sporran-hangers) - and is a style favoured by both the late Duke of Edinburgh and the new King.

[OC Richard]

About different lengths for formal Evening waistcoats and the sort worn with "Day" jackets such as the Argyll I wouldn't think so, because the same thing dictates how long they can be: the sporran.

I know there's no "regulation" but at least since the second half of the 18th century men have tended to wear their sporrans within a certain range of heights. It seems always to have been a personal thing, because we can look at a group of images from the 1860s and 1890s and 1930s and 1970s and see in every time-period a similar range of sporran heights from gent to gent, even in the military.

Here, two members of the 93rd c1860 (left) members of the modern Royal Regiment of Scotland (centre) and two Pipe Majors from different regiments c1900 (right) showing sporrans worn at differing heights even within the same unit.



It is strange that recently some Highland Dress firms have been dressing their models with oddly high sporrans.

For me the waistcoat shouldn't be overlapping the sporran nor should there be a wide gap between the bottom of the waistcoat and the sporran.

I have found that waistcoats that look good when I wear them with Highland Dress are rather shorter than non-Highland waistcoats. The waistcoats have come with, say, 48R kilt jackets are shorter than the waistcoats that have come with 48R suits.

It wasn't like that until fairly recently. Go back and look at photos of mens suits a generation or two ago and their trousers are the same height as traditional kilts, and their waistcoats are as short as traditional Highland waistcoats.

But recently the waistline in mens clothing has been descending. Suits come with jeans-cut trousers and unless the waistcoats are made a few inches longer there's a gap.

Here are traditional mens trousers, top, and new mens trousers, bottom.



To put numbers to the waistcoat length that looks best with my kilts, and the waistcoats that are too long, I measured the length in back from neckline to bottom of some of my Highland and non-Highland waistcoats.

Waistcoat that came with a Geoffrey Tailor (Edinbugh) Argyll: 22 inches.

Waistcoat that came with a St Kilda (Glasgow) Argyll: 22 inches.

River Junction Western vest: 23.5 inches. (Though a bit long I have worn it with kilts.)

Eddie Bauer tweed vest: 23.75 inches. (Too long for kilts.)

Woolrich tweed vest: 25.75 inches. (Far too long for kilts.)

Here's that Geoffrey Tailor waistcoat (centre). With kilts it doesn't look short due to Highland Dress maintaining the traditional mens higher waistline. It's nearly touching the sporran so I wouldn't want to wear the sporran any higher or have the waistcoat any longer.

I'm wearing my Evening sporran a bit low for some reason, making a bit of a gap (left). You can see by where the Evening and Day waistcoats end in relation to the tartan of the kilt that both are around the same length.

I occasionally wear a belt when I'm not wearing a waistcoat (right).

[Father Bill]

As regards sporran height, which of course interacts with vest length: I wear my sporran where it's most comfortable. What a concept!

In my case, because of my body shape, it's comfortable a wee smidgen higher than many might wear theirs - not visually out of place or visually unusual, but comfortable. A sporran is not a sports protector.

[Kitfoxdave]

Folks, I appreciate your insights and feedback. Thanks so much!

[Panache]

As regards sporran height, which of course interacts with vest length: I wear my sporran where it's most comfortable. What a concept!

In my case, because of my body shape, it's comfortable a wee smidgen higher than many might wear theirs - not visually out of place or visually unusual, but comfortable. A sporran is not a sports protector.

Which makes perfect sense considering that body types vary. The length of your legs and torso and the width of your girth are all factors that will determine what is most comfortable and looks best.

Cheers

Jamie