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Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?
I am curious about the history of the Prince Charlie jacket. Does anyone know approximately when it was first used? Would it be an appropriate garment to wear to a Dickens Fair (Victorian era event)?
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I believe it's named after the "Bonnie Prince" himself - Charles Edward Stewart. Not that they wore jackets like that in his day...!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Prince_Charlie
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I think it has a somewhat Victorian cut. But something more Victorian might be an a Sheriffmuir or Montrose doublet or anything thing with Inverness flaps.
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A PC is akin to a tux. No Idon't think it appropriate. I think a tweed kilt jacket would be a better idea. Oh, and a deerstalker hat.
Edit: Downplay the kilt pin to a simple pin as it was Queen Victoria herself that invented (?) the kilt pin by using a hat pin on a soldiers wayward kilt one windy day.
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Originally Posted by ccga3359
... Downplay the kilt pin to a simple pin as it was Queen Victoria herself that invented (?) the kilt pin by using a hat pin on a soldiers wayward kilt one windy day.
We are eternally grateful that is was some dashing young Scot who predicament caught the Queen's eye, and whose modesty was saved by one of her own brooches. Had it been Grant, more than likely she would have just used a staple gun... :lol:
Cheers
Jamie
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Originally Posted by Panache
Had it been Grant, more than likely she would have just used a staple gun... :lol:
Cheers
Jamie
And I would bloody well count that as a kilt check!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccga3359
...Edit: Downplay the kilt pin to a simple pin as it was Queen Victoria herself that invented (?) the kilt pin by using a hat pin on a soldiers wayward kilt one windy day.
This story has been going around for decades, and is as factual as the one about the Prince Albert: not at all.
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Originally Posted by gilmore
This story has been going around for decades, and is as factual as the one about the Prince Albert: not at all.
It is a rather charming story though.
Cheers
Jamie
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The Prince Charlie coatee dates pretty much from sometime after 1935. I have heard it stated that it was invented to coincide with the bi-centennial of the 1745 Jacobite rising (hence the name), but there is some evidence to suggest it was available before 1939. What is known is that it was invented to provide a lower cost evening wear jacket, and to possibly use up a backlog of "off the peg" tails coats. Because of it's ease of manufacture it gained wide popularity after WWII, and by the mid-60s had pretty much supplanted other styles of jackets for highland evening wear. Part of this was due, I believe, to it's popularity with country dancers. The cut of a Prince Charlie coatee shows a good deal of tartan while being at once less costly and more comfortable to move in than other formal jackets.
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A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check :evil:! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.
Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...al_servant.jpg
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Is That A Pin I See?
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Originally Posted by ccga3359
A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check :evil:! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.
Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...al_servant.jpg
About half way up the kilt on the R/H side of the apron is either a kilt pin or a small buckle to keep the apron in place.
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Very dashing: Vikki had good taste.....
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Aside from the undoubted good taste displayed by the Her Majesty, the Late Queen Empress, she also owned several homes. This likeness of Mr. Brown was painted while at Her Majesty's estate at Osborne House on the Isle of Wight.
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Wow, thanks all for the information!
So, clearly Victorian garb the PC is not. I like the idea of a nice tweed kilt jacket with a deerstalker cap. Add a waist coat and perhaps a Victorian cravat and I might have a very nice formal Victorian day ware ensemble indeed! (as for formal evening ware, I still have some research to do)
I will make sure to send pictures of what ever I come up with.
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Here some pic links to guide you:
Casual.
Dressy.
Formal.
And the all important;
Kilt DO's & DON'T's
Right I've assigned enough homework for the day, I'm off to Bedlam.
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Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
About half way up the kilt on the R/H side of the apron is either a kilt pin or a small buckle to keep the apron in place.
I suspect it is a kilt pin of some sort, much like the one worn in this painting by Kenneth MacLeay of Farquhar MacDonald (left) & Lachlan MacDonald (right).
http://www.geocities.com/schreckhise...ONALDCOVER.jpg
Note the one on Farquhar MacDonald's kilt that looks very much like a Penannular brooch. Though Brown's is partially obscured, it closely resembles the one worn by MacDonald above.
Having collected a number of MacLeay's prints I note an absence on many of his subjects of wearing any sort of kilt pin, with the exception of Brown, MacDonald & William MacDonald (below):
http://www.geocities.com/schreckhise...MACDONALD7.jpg
the Prince of Wale's Piper, shown with a banner embroidered with the arms of the Prince of Wales, and in the background is Abergeldie Castle. Note the kilt pin about midway down, under the dirk.
Also note how much higher the kilt pin was worn (when worn) during Victorian times by these individuals.
I love MacLeay's works of "Queen Victoria's Highlanders" :)
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On the pic of John Brown and the piper the "brooch" doesn't seem to be on the apron but to the side, could it even be a buckle placed part way down to preserve modesty, it would make sense either way but the placement is what pushes me towards the buckle route.
Personally though, the term "Prince Charlie" always brings views of a small syphilitic italian wearing a womans dress and making a big deal about travelling across a short stretch of water to Skye. As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."
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Originally Posted by davim19
As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."
I can see why you are marrying her!
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Personally though, the term "Prince Charlie" always brings views of a small syphilitic italian wearing a womans dress and making a big deal about travelling across a short stretch of water to Skye. As my Fiancee said when she first saw the "sea to Skye".
"Why did she use a boat, she could have thrown him across."
:rofl:
You forgot that he was pretending to be an Irish maid...
Good on ya & yer fiancee!
T.
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Originally Posted by davim19
On the pic of John Brown and the piper the "brooch" doesn't seem to be on the apron but to the side, could it even be a buckle placed part way down to preserve modesty, it would make sense either way but the placement is what pushes me towards the buckle route.
If it is a buckle then it doesn't seem to be a common feature. MacLeay painted a set of 31, mostly kilted, and these would be the only ones I remember seeing such a feature. As for the piper if you follow the lines of the sett on the apron on up the "pin" most certainly is on the apron, albeit fairly close to the edge.
I'm still leaning towards kilt pins of some sort, however my mind is open to other possibilities if anyone has evidence to the contrary.
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I wonder who the original designer of the PC was and if he (or she) coined the name?
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http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...k/scan0004.jpg
Lots of kilts at our Dickens on the Strand fest last year. Since the dress tends to be late 1800's Victorian formal, most were worn with PC jackets and blak tie, like a Burns supper was about to break out! I think an Argyll and waistcoat, with period shirt and neckwear is more "authentic" for the period. Not sure about deerstalkers, but do have a hat, everyone wore hats in those days.
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Originally Posted by Zardoz
but do have a hat, everyone wore hats in those days.
But of course, a gentleman was not properly dressed without a hat.:naughty:
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Originally Posted by Arlen
I can see why you are marrying her!
Too right, I have promised not to wear a kilt for the ceremony so as not to upstage her. But I may have to look into a contemporary outfit for the reception.
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Originally Posted by ccga3359
Come on... That looks nothing like Billy Connelly. Next you are going to tell us that William Wallace didn't really look like Mel Gibson :lol: :lol:
Seriously, that's a cool picture. It's intersting to see how differnt the pocket flaps are on this version from today's tweed argyle coats. I reminds me more of of the side of some doublets.
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Originally Posted by Colin
Come on... That looks nothing like Billy Connelly. Next you are going to tell us that William Wallce didn't really look like Mel Gibson :lol: :lol:
Seriously, that's a cool picture. It's interesting to see how different the pocket flaps are on this version from today's tweed argyle coats. I reminds me more of of the side of some doublets.
Of course not, although Mel Gibson does have an uncanny resemblance to Sir William Wallace 9especially the height thing) and may be a direct descendant. I recall reading somewhere that John Brown was unique in his choice of solid tweed kilt over a clan tartan.
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Originally Posted by Colin
Come on... That looks nothing like Billy Connelly.
Aye, but you have to admit that Connelly looked good in a kilt! :wink:
I'm still not certain if that is a buckle or a kilt pin. I have to admit the placement for a kilt pin is odd, but then so would be a buckle. I wish the plaid was not obscuring the side of the kilt! :cussing:
I wonder if Matt Newsome has ran into any Victorian era kilts having such "modesty" buckles (as one Xmarkser put it) on them in his studies?
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John Brown / Victorian Dress
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[QUOTE=BoldHighlander;486611]I thought the original post'er (is that correct?) of this thread would like to see some period Victorian photos of John Brown in his everyday wear.
http://www.geocities.com/headless_chasseur/jbrown.jpg
I wonder what that tartan is?
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Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
The Prince Charlie coatee dates pretty much from sometime after 1935.
Hard to accept given that we have a coatee in the closet of said style dated from 1921 (Wm Anderson Edinburgh). It has all the design elements but rather than black its a very dark archer green (looks black except in the glare of sunlight) and its buttons are solid sterling silver balls. The colour, I think, is the real give-away to its pedigree (today: Kinloch Anderson) as the case of other formal and dress attire: the military. I have little to believe that the style did not predate the great war.
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Originally Posted by Nanook
Hard to accept given that we have a coatee in the closet of said style dated from 1921 (Wm Anderson Edinburgh). It has all the design elements but rather than black its a very dark archer green (looks black except in the glare of sunlight) and its buttons are solid sterling silver balls. The colour, I think, is the real give-away to its pedigree (today: Kinloch Anderson) as the case of other formal and dress attire: the military. I have little to believe that the style did not predate the great war.
Thanks for the info! Thus far the earliest dated jacket I've found is either 1936, 1938, or 1939; the label is smudged and the last number is almost undecipherable. That was the reason for my post 1935 statement. Anyhow, I'd be delighted to see a picture of the jacket-- any chance you could post one?
As to the colour-- it was probably black to begin with, not Archer green. Many old black garments have acquired a greenish hue over the years due to a shift in colour as a result of the cleaning processes then in use.
As military uniforms are usually derived from the civilian clothing of the period, and not the other way around, I suspect that the Prince Charlie coatee (what ever it's antiquity) owes more to the cut-down tails coat worn by a gentleman then it does a piece of military clothing.
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Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Anyhow, I'd be delighted to see a picture of the jacket-- any chance you could post one?
I see if I have a chance.
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As to the colour-- it was probably black to begin with, not Archer green. Many old black garments have acquired a greenish hue over the years due to a shift in colour as a result of the cleaning processes then in use.
The iron complexes and dye deterioration tend to be towards green/brown and patchy rather than consistent. Although the garment is pushing 90 the dark green really does appear to be a very dark green (looking also at the silk bits). I need to look at it again.
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As military uniforms are usually derived from the civilian clothing of the period, and not the other way around,
Here too I would have to disagree. Most of Savile Row as well as Highland garb specialists such as Wm Anderson were outfitters of military uniforms.
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I suspect that the Prince Charlie coatee (what ever it's antiquity) owes more to the cut-down tails coat worn by a gentleman then it does a piece of military clothing.
The cut-down tails coat--- short Spencer Jacket--- became quite the rage among dandies in the late 1790s and was quickly morphed by others with military touches into the Hussar. The tails coat itself only became mainstream decades later in Regency period--- when everyone seemed to want to dress like Beau Brummell. The basis of the look, however, was as much military as civilian and the "civilian" elements more imported from the Continent (French revolutionary style) than home grown. One needs to recall the impact of Napoleon Bonaparte on French fashion in the early 1880s. This also lead to rather spectacular uniforms. The Napoleonic Wars, in turn, exposed these military uniforms to a very wide audience and elements were feed back into civilian design. There were, of course, within Europe much counter-reaction to ""Sans Coulotte", none-the-less, French Revolutionary style also ended the dominance of breeches and brought forth the style of trousers.
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Originally Posted by ccga3359
Of course not, although Mel Gibson does have an uncanny resemblance to Sir William Wallace 9especially the height thing) and may be a direct descendant. ....
How would anyone know if Gibson looks like Wallace?
There are no surviving contemporary portraits of Wallace, and it is unlikely that any ever existed. Portraits were almost never made of people of his social standing at that time and place. Even if there were, portraiture at the time was usually stereotypal, and not very good a showing individual features. Further, like most men of his time, Wallace probably had long hair and a beard that would have covered most of his face, obscuring his features and rendering them invisible to an artist.
It is impossible that Gibson, or anyone else is an identifiable descendant of Wallace. He had no known children, nor did he leave any known collateral descendants through any brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles or cousins. This topic was the subject of a thread of two here, as well as a recent one at the Wallace surname board at rootsweb.com.
Though many---possibly hundreds ---have bragged of their direct descent from William Wallace over the centuries, it just isn't so. It's yet another of those gentle lies that people tell about their ancestry.
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Originally Posted by gilmore
How would anyone know if Gibson looks like Wallace?
There are no surviving contemporary portraits of Wallace, and it is unlikely that any ever existed. Portraits were almost never made of people of his social standing at that time and place. Even if there were, portraiture at the time was usually stereotypal, and not very good a showing individual features. Further, like most men of his time, Wallace probably had long hair and a beard that would have covered most of his face, obscuring his features and rendering them invisible to an artist.
It is impossible that Gibson, or anyone else is an identifiable descendant of Wallace. He had no known children, nor did he leave any known collateral descendants through any brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles or cousins. This topic was the subject of a thread of two here, as well as a recent one at the Wallace surname board at rootsweb.com.
Though many---possibly hundreds ---have bragged of their direct descent from William Wallace over the centuries, it just isn't so. It's yet another of those gentle lies that people tell about their ancestry.
I think Grant was taking the piss....
I feel for the people that visit the statue in Stering and really think that is what Wallace looked like
http://content.answers.com/main/cont...ace_Statue.JPG
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Originally Posted by ccga3359
A fictitious kilt check is still a kilt check :evil:! So when did the kilt pin make an appearance? We are looking to get Farlander kited up for the mid to late 1800 Scotland.
Here is a pic of Queen Vic's favourite Scot; John Brown.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...al_servant.jpg
I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran, something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.
When did this change? Anyone?
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Originally Posted by Prester John
I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran, something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.
When did this change? Anyone?
Notice that his sporran is different. Military ones are cut straight at the bottom, whereas Brown's is rough and scraggly. I've seen this kind worn by civilians nowadays, but have been unable to find one myself.
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Originally Posted by BoldHighlander
I thought the original post'er (is that correct?) of this thread would like to see some period Victorian photos of John Brown in his everyday wear.
Sure, the original poster (as in ME) is interested in Victorian Scottish wear. John Brown pictures are a fine example.
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Prester John
I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran, something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.
When did this change? Anyone?
Not a complete answer, but two references to changing sporran fashions taken from the Scottish Tartans Authority website.
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Basically the costume for civilian wear may also be said not to have altered since the 18th century. Yet, in matters of detail, each generation has introduced modifications, and even modern fashions have appropriately exerted their influences, though curiously enough, they have in matters of Highland dress in many ways lead to rediscovery of both the practical and artistic advantages of the older Scottish styles which, during the 19 century, had tended to become more oppressive in cut and decoration. As an example of minor changes in taste, the sporran of an all-white goat hair, almost universally the fashion during the Victorian age, has to a great extent given place to a smaller sporran of sealskin, often elaborately decorated with pierced and engraved silver mountings.
http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/...eartheKilt.asp
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The Sporran
Since Highlanders didn't have any pockets in their kilt they needed something to carry their bits and pieces in - including the lead shot for their muskets - and the earliest sporran was a plain draw-string bag of cloth or thin leather that was hung around the waist. More affluent Highlanders decorated their sporrans with a silver top and tassels.
As time went on the sporrans became even fancier and by the late 1800s the sporan molach or hair sporran appeared — made of animal skins such as otter, badger, goat and seal. In Victorian times the sporrans got so huge and fancy that they almost covered the front of the kilt.
http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/...land_Dress.asp
Best regards,
Jake
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Originally Posted by Prester John
I notice that John Brown is wearing what we would today call a horsehair sporran,
The sporran is probably NOT horsehair but goat hair.
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something considered inappropriate for non-military/pipe band use.
That view seems most advocated by pipers--- and most loudly by those that shun Nr1 dress.
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When did this change? Anyone?
Probably starting in the 1960s.
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